Seeking Straight Edge Selection Advice Plain/Combo with dovetail?

dgfoster · Mar 5, 2014

I am considering purchase of a camel back straight edge in about 36" length. I am open to buying a rough casting, or a straight edge that may need to be rescraped. I would probably rescrape anything I buy in any event.

I intend to use this on my lathe and knee mill. the 36" would be a bit short for the mill but I think, with care, I could get by with the 36 there. The part I am wondering about is whether it is better to get a combo straight edge with dovetail on one side or just figure on making or buying a prism or two for the dovetail work and get a plain straight edge. I am wondering if on the mill vertical ways if the combo would be awkward due to its weight and I'll end up with a prism there regardless. Due to the location of the mill it would be inconvenient to lay it down for scraping.

I have been watching eBay and in addition have found a couple of sources for castings and one nice combo 36" camel back available locally. I just haven't yet pulled the trigger.

Denis

RayG · Mar 5, 2014

Hi Denis,

I've been lusting after one of these ceramic straight edges.. Item # 102278, Straight Edges ? Grade AA On Busch Precision, Inc.

As far as camel back goes, personally I think the suburban parallel type I beam type would be more useful in the longer term,

There's a bit of discussion on straight edge types here.. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/cast-iron-straight-edge-type-better-203687/

Ray

dgfoster · Mar 5, 2014

RayG said:
Hi Denis,

I've been lusting after one of these ceramic straight edges.. Item # 102278, Straight Edges ? Grade AA On Busch Precision, Inc.

As far as camel back goes, personally I think the suburban parallel type I beam type would be more useful in the longer term,

There's a bit of discussion on straight edge types here.. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/cast-iron-straight-edge-type-better-203687/

Ray

Thanks for the link, Ray. It was a good discussion. After reading through it, I now understand why I was unsure of the best choice. Still not sure.

Denis

J_R_Thiele · Mar 5, 2014

My thinking is to "pull the trigger" and get the 36 in combo and get it scraped in. You then have the most capability in the one tool you have.

You can add the others later if you wish, and by that point will know why YOU want them.

The next step is to start adding different sizes of all the different types. Why? Because tools are what we use and think about. Some just resist temptation better than others...

Nick Mueller · Mar 6, 2014

I am wondering if on the mill vertical ways if the combo would be awkward due to its weight and I'll end up with a prism there regardless. Due to the location of the mill it would be inconvenient to lay it down for scraping.

My bet is, that you will lay down the mill to scrape that way.
Your neck and back will tell you what to do after pass #10.

I'd buy a combined camelback.

Nick

bebop · Mar 6, 2014

I also would sugest you buy the combined camelback ... a prizum is handy to get under the lip of the dovtail but its far to "flexable" it will bend to match the surface its laying on, the camelback will also but to a lesser degree.Never scrape vertical if you can avoid it, you will tire quickly and the quality of your work will degrade, you'll try to rush through it and be unsatisfied with your results , and it's no fun. :->
Cheers Don

stephen thomas · Mar 6, 2014

No one tool will do it all unless most of your machines have slideways under about 30" long. This is because of weight (personal lifting limitations) and the awkwardness or even impossibility of using tools big enough for "larger" ways on small compounds, cross slides, etc.

If all the ways are smallish, an 18" to 24" long fitters straight edge might come close. This is a parallel beam style, with at least one square edge, and at least one dovetail. It will not be wide enough to do BP size machine columns in one hit, and is too short for the table ways. But it comes close on smaller machines.

Add a 48" camelback, and then everything on a BP is accessible, at least. It will be a little tough to do the table way dovetails but can be accomplished with care. The thing is, the 18 - 24" fitters SE will be almost ideal for knee and apron ways if it is wide enough.

Add a 48" prism, or a 30" or longer combination SE with a dovetail edge wide enough to cover any of the ways, and most machines on the order of a BP are accessible and more or less convenient.

smt

toolman40 · Mar 9, 2014

Does any body know where or how to get your hands on these straight edges Dennis

dgfoster · Mar 9, 2014

toolman40 said:
Does any body know where or how to get your hands on these straight edges Dennis

Toolman, that is a very good question. Finding a rough casting or finished 36" camelback with a dovetail edge is not easy. I did follow up on the two leads that were provided in the thread you started. Craig Donges is selling a well-proportioned rough castings for a 36" c-back but it does not have a dovetail edge. The other fellow, Dermer, is selling a Moore-style box straight edge in 21" and 30" rough castings. Dermer also has a 18" rough casting with a dovetail and he is also selling a casting to make a precision scraped right angle
21" Box straightedge casting $325
30" Box straightedge casting $425
18" Camelback casting $100
10" Precision Angle casting $100

It seems surprising that there are so few of the camelbacks for sale. I suspect that there are hundreds sitting around unused. But, once someone goes to the trouble of scraping theirs in, they are probably not inclined to sell it for what it would fetch.

So compromise may be the name of the game. I am trying to keep as many leads open as possible. I am pretty sure that with patience one can be found. The idea of casting some comes to mind. But other folks have done this in the past and they do not seem eager to have another go at it. So that route must be expensive and/or a lot of trouble. I did check with a foundry here in Bellingham just to get a rough idea of costs, but it they only do non-ferrous casting. If I were to do a run, I think it would be a 36" with dovetail.

Denis

PDW · Mar 9, 2014

dgfoster said:
The idea of casting some comes to mind. But other folks have done this in the past and they do not seem eager to have another go at it. So that route must be expensive and/or a lot of trouble.

I've had a total of 4 small (575mm) and 4 slightly bigger (640mm) parallel beam castings done from my patterns without dramas at the foundry. I'm thinking of making up a 900mm pattern with a wide/thick enough bottom flange to be machined for dovetail spotting.

Can't see the point in a camelback one for my use and I wouldn't bother making one. OK, in bigger sizes there might be some weight saving but the flip side is, you can't use it to check levels by putting a sensitive machinist's level on the top. I have an 1800mm camelback straight edge, cost me a slab of beer. Makes a great wall ornament.

PDW

TGTool · Mar 10, 2014

Denis,

You might talk to Martin Model & Pattern (Martin Model & Pattern - your online source for fine quality patterns and castings) in Portland. He has castings for a box square/parallel among other things but I don't remember if he has straightedges. If not, you might interest him in making up the patterns. He has a place to do the casting and is a professional patternmaker so would be in a position to generate a pattern quickly and well.

stephen thomas · Mar 10, 2014

The idea of casting some comes to mind. But other folks have done this in the past and they do not seem eager to have another go at it

My experience over 20 years with 4 foundries is that when I go to place a follow-up order they go bankrupt. :rolleyes5:

I have found where my patterns are after the last bankruptcy. But am not really in a position to order a batch at the moment.

smt

dgfoster · Mar 10, 2014

stephen thomas said:
My experience over 20 years with 4 foundries is that when I go to place a follow-up order they go bankrupt.

I have found where my patterns are after the last bankruptcy. But am not really in a position to order a batch at the moment.

smt

I just got off the phone having had a very pleasant and informative conversation with Gary at Martin Pattern in Portland. Interesting guy who currently teaches industrial arts to adults in Portland and who is interested in promoting metal arts and as an important part of that hand scraping. His primary job is as a professional pattern maker. See his website posted a couple of posts up by TGTool. He sounded interested in getting a run of 36" camelbacks with dovetail going if there is enough solid interest to make it happen.

I encouraged him to join PM and join in the discussion as I think he has a lot to offer in terms of experience in industrial arts in general, but his background as a life-long professional teacher and his experience as professional metal caster may be helpful as well.

My apologies to him if I did not get all the above info represented accurately.

Denis

toolman40 · Mar 12, 2014

PDW Could you e-mail me information [email protected] on what you have in straight edges I would appreciate it. Thanks Dennis

dian · Mar 12, 2014

dgfoster said:
Toolman, that is a very good question. Finding a rough casting or finished 36" camelback with a dovetail edge is not easy. I did follow up on the two leads that were provided in the thread you started. Craig Donges is selling a well-proportioned rough castings for a 36" c-back but it does not have a dovetail edge. The other fellow, Dermer, is selling a Moore-style box straight edge in 21" and 30" rough castings. Dermer also has a 18" rough casting with a dovetail and he is also selling a casting to make a precision scraped right angle
21" Box straightedge casting $325
30" Box straightedge casting $425
18" Camelback casting $100
10" Precision Angle casting $100

It seems surprising that there are so few of the camelbacks for sale. I suspect that there are hundreds sitting around unused. But, once someone goes to the trouble of scraping theirs in, they are probably not inclined to sell it for what it would fetch.

So compromise may be the name of the game. I am trying to keep as many leads open as possible. I am pretty sure that with patience one can be found. The idea of casting some comes to mind. But other folks have done this in the past and they do not seem eager to have another go at it. So that route must be expensive and/or a lot of trouble. I did check with a foundry here in Bellingham just to get a rough idea of costs, but it they only do non-ferrous casting. If I were to do a run, I think it would be a 36" with dovetail.

Denis

these prices are very expensive. i can get a 750 mm din 0 camelback for $350 (without tax).

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Seeking Straight Edge Selection Advice Plain/Combo with dovetail?

dgfoster

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PDW

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