CRI-DAN -----------the enigma

for the better part of two decades the mystery of CRI-DAN single point threaders has held a grip

so I dialed a machinist who I knew to have operated this flavor of lathe while
an apprentice at the local navy shipyard 50 years ago

i needed literature covering any or all series CRI-DAN turners--A,B C,D, E and F series machines--
literature was certain to be a problem------Lathes.co.uk has no listing of CRI-DAN --- well, if Tony G's website had no entry tagging CRI-DAN--my work was cut out for me

so machinist bud sadly informs no literature resides in his tool compendium files--but he offered a consolation ---a Sentinel model B CRI-DAN he acquired
20 years ago and never put under power--mine for the removal

four days ago the CRI-DAN venue changed from his yard art to mine

one day--it may actually peel a thread

owning a CRI-DAN is nice--but many fundamental unknowns of the marque remain


what I have uncovered will require several days to post--and if any reader has meaningful info --please contribute

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What is the advantages and disadvantages of this machine? How do they operate? How does this stack up to a screw machine or turret lathe?

Tom

Edit: Found some stuff on the net,

CRI-DAN single point threader - Google Search

T:-

Quick Google search turned up this...

Thread-cutting machines - Cri, Dan

They were a very high speed threading machine. Even now you'd be hard pressed to get a CNC machine to thread quicker. I saw one working in the 1970's and they were really good to watch. It was mainly for thread sizes larger than most die heads could deal with.

I worked for a short while at one place that had one, a pal of mine actually operated it. He would know all about them. As I understood they worked off a series of cams.

Originally the machine was a French design ( " Ernault Somua " ? ) that was licensed to be built over here by " Alfred Herbert ". They appear to have sub contracted the job to " Sentinel " in Shrewsbury.

Unless you've got thousands of threaded rods to produce it's a very nice colour of boat anchor. As far as I know you can't use them for anything else other than threading.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, Tyrone.

Fascinating :-)

I think i can see what it does and roughly how, but would love to see the inner details .


We have a, now disused, wire/strip bending machine at the press shop. it is an other cam-driven enigma, no one is left who knows how to set it up!

Apparently, it used to sit there, quietly knocking out spring clips day in day out .

Perhaps i ought to get photos and documents before the poor thing is scraped.

Bill

I have a similar machine,a Herbert Cri-Dan type B.I have had mine operating,mainly because it also has a hydraulic copy attachment attached to the facing at the back.Its a steep learning curve to do a thread,and each time I have had to figure it out all over again.Even the air chuck had me stumped,until I figured out that it needs at least 80psi to operate.I see you have the set of change gears,which I dont.Basically with just one cam,and the change gears you can do many threads.One thing though,the saddle has a number of "butterfly" torsion springs,that are pigs to get back in place without breaking off the ends,whereupon you will replace them with tension springs held with wire hooks,and rubber bands.Yep,they dont last long.If you scrap the machine,please save the change gears.Regards John.

Tyrone,for some strange reason,the Sentinel and Herbert type b s are quite different.I chased a manual for a Sentinel,and swapped a new Cincinnatti manual with a very weird person,it took me a year of pestering the creep to get the Cri-Dan manual in exchange,when I finally got it,he had ripped out the whole centre section of the book.Nevertheless, the parts drawing section was there,and I could see that the Sentinel was totally different.I might add said creep is a machine tool guru,and has a huge workshop full of machinery,and is also said to be a cnc wiz.Regards John.

We had one at CRAND TOOL (East Windsor, CT) circa 1970 - they "clunk" a lot. I.E., all mechanical, but exceedingly EFFICACIOUS

It was doing P&WA parts, and those folks expected all threads to be spot on

From the looks of the inside of that headstock, "meaningful info" is not your highest priority!

Mike

I think the best way to restore that machine will be to put out wanted ads on this site and craigslist looking for a better one.

Before we and many others had NC machines and your only choice was to single point thread on your manual machine we used a shop that just did threading and had about half a dozen Cri-Dans. Used to like going in there and watch them work, hand ground threading tools and machines clunking away. It's a cool clunk. Was always surprised that they thread cut dry. It was a relief sending parts to them versus trying to manually single point them. I'm guessing as NC's became more popular the threading shops all went away.

sean9c said:

Before we and many others had NC machines and your only choice was to single point thread on your manual machine we used a shop that just did threading and had about half a dozen Cri-Dans. Used to like going in there and watch them work, hand ground threading tools and machines clunking away. It's a cool clunk. Was always surprised that they thread cut dry. It was a relief sending parts to them versus trying to manually single point them. I'm guessing as NC's became more popular the threading shops all went away.

Click to expand...

I would imagine that thread rolling machines took a lot of the work away from cutting machines, no matter how good/fast they were they'd still not have the smoothness and increased toughness of a rolled thread.

CRI-DAN Type A

on the builder plate of the CRI-DAN Sentinel is US patent 2265265
patent submission occurred 1939 and grant 1941
inventor is Xavier Francois Castelli--an individual residing in Paris France
patent assignee is himself

XF Castelli was awarded 4 more US patents applicable to semi-automatic threading--and all of these list CRI-DAN as assignee with presumed company origin between 1941-43
CRI-DAN has always had Paris address--with heavy manufacturing at headquarters unlikely--for 65 years or so 22 Rue de la Paix--see first pic


Castelli hit home run with his first patent--a single point mechanical threading system based upon cam and ratchet clock mechanism--
company name has always been a puzzlement--a single blog note on french website may hold the clue--two daughters--Cristelle and Danielle

the single patent -repeated in Canada, UK, Deutschland, Italy,Australia
allowed a business model as rare as lottery win--business based upon patent licensing --no dirty hands, labor unions, overhead--all my conjecture

first machine seems to have been cast/produced by Ernault--the type A
slant bed design true to the patent sketches
naming of machine types A thru F somewhat correlates with working envelope--
the A being very limited - small diameter short threaded segment production

slant bed configuration was maintained into early type B production

as the potential of the manufacturing system unfolded-conventional horizontal bed frames appeared and dominated--allowing hydraulic tracing, copy attachments, etc with a multitude of options

the italians produced type A frames with modest production and minimal export

CRI-DAN is a viable enterprise today--still listed at decades old address--currently classified as real estate development company of Paris holdings

the mechanical drawing is of type A slant bed CRI-DAN
the center of the illustration is a barrel cam
beefy with thick od --this cam drives the cutting tool along the z axis
lengthwise --the cam profile determines the maximum threaded length--
so as you view the large cams on table those with more dramatic rise and fall are capable of producing longest threaded segment--about 45 mm for type A but many times longer on the type F

the letter fragment is a real curio--CRI-DAN mailing from occupied Paris--1944

Milland said:

I would imagine that thread rolling machines took a lot of the work away from cutting machines, no matter how good/fast they were they'd still not have the smoothness and increased toughness of a rolled thread.

Click to expand...

That's interesting, in all my years I've not thought of that. My experience and that of those that I know is that we cut threads unless rolling was specified. So I've cut millions and rolled thousands. Though I do love thread rolling, cheap, fast and they do all the work.

Here are some photos of a Herbert Cri-Dan Type B. This machine was advertised about 18 months ago in NZ and I saved the photos. It didn't look like it had a great future, but perhaps it attracted a sympathetic new owner like JHolland1 .

I too wondered how it worked, but didn't follow it up. Thanks for investigating this clever design. I see there are not just spare gears, but spare face cams inside the cover.

Same as mine.Except mine has a hyd copy attachment on the back facing.The machine will do things a thread roller cant,for instance cutting a thread on a coke bottle shape.Its amazing how perfect the thread is,when cut with a hand ground tool,that would produce a ragged thread manually.The thread also ends each time in exactly the same place,and threading up to a boss,with a small undercut where the tool retracts.It can do as many as 100 passes,and cut depth is infinitely adjustable.I only have one cam,and a few change gears,but I can profile and thread a Mauser tenon in a few seconds.Unfortunately ,mine is headed for the scrapyard,along with all my other machines.Regards John.

This one has been for sale for years here in Aus
Lathe, thread cutting lathe only | eBay