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UCRmachine

Plastic
Joined
Dec 12, 2016
Howdy, Been a Haas guy for a number of years and I like them. But I am looking for an entry level VMC with a 4th axis wiring for around $80K.
How are the entry level Fanucs and Siemans, Mitsubeasty and Fagor…. And also looking at the Trak LMP with their PMX control. This is for a
University Shop so I need to spend wisely and choose what will last the poor dumb taxpayer as long as possible (" Given that this is funded by earnest tax payers (and I work for essentially a non-profit) I want to get the absolute best long terms value (even if that means I have to pay a little more).(thankyou cameraman !!) ". . Accuracy and long life is most import rather than speed. 75% will be soft easy material..... The other 25% will be nasty stuff like Areomet 100 and Inconelish stuff. Yes I know I won't get the perfect mill..... but I need to make every effort to come as close as possible. Also there is no way possible to get more money for this project so Yasda's are out. As of right now, Haas VF2 with some options and their 10% off for schools looks like the winner but I want to see if you may know about something I have not known about. Thanks for any help and wisdom you can send me. -mateo
 
Wow...Just Wow.....:ack2:

That caught my eye too as I've been in gov' funded research in different countries for many years (now I have my own leaky little ship).

I assume he means "Dumb" as in not able to speak (without voice or option to choose for them ). Is that too much of an ass covering rationalization (by proxy) ?

I would have rephrased that as " Given that this is funded by earnest tax payers (and I work for essentially a non-profit) I want to get the absolute best long terms value (even if that means I have to pay a little more). ".


"Looking for best long term price performance ratio without destroying our budget"


Kind of thing.

@UCR machine what is your budget... ?

AND how far are you away from Davis California (just out of interest)?

Or where are you located to the nearest 100 miles or so ?
 
I have both Haas and Fanuc machines.

If I was choosing between a VF2 and a Doosan DNM4500, I'd go with the Doosan.
 
Wow...Just Wow.....:ack2:

It's a joke son... I say it's a joke !!! ……..I say this because you would not believe what taxpayers pay for in State run universities. I really try to remember that I am one of the poor dumb taxpayers that think that my dollars are spent wisely. So if I offened you I am sorry.... I think you and I are on the same side... sometimes my humor does not translate to others... I will remember to work on this ! So any wisdom you have I would welcome.... Help me help the taxpayer !!!
 
It's a joke son... I say it's a joke !!! ……..I say this because you would not believe what taxpayers pay for in State run universities. I really try to remember that I am one of the poor dumb taxpayers that think that my dollars are spent wisely. So if I offened you I am sorry.... I think you and I are on the same side... sometimes my humor does not translate to others... I will remember to work on this ! So any wisdom you have I would welcome.... Help me help the taxpayer !!!


Nice !

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Really sharpens your thinking to learn how to accomplish "big" / "Biggish" things on a shoe string budget. I'm originally from the UK and the 'State" paid for my education. BUT I have to say at the graduate level the US universities have soooooo much $ to burn by comparison.

@UCRm Good on yah man !
 
It's a joke son... I say it's a joke !!! ……..I say this because you would not believe what taxpayers pay for in State run universities. I really try to remember that I am one of the poor dumb taxpayers that think that my dollars are spent wisely. So if I offened you I am sorry.... I think you and I are on the same side... sometimes my humor does not translate to others... I will remember to work on this ! So any wisdom you have I would welcome.... Help me help the taxpayer !!!

I don't think so...I think your on tenure, you spend your days writing books
that you make money from, and will retire at 55, getting 102% of your pay.

I think your backpedaling, from a Freudian slip.
 
Doosan? Hurco ? no I have not, but will look into them, Thanks !! We are in Riverside Ca. Budget is $80K, one researcher says he may pay for the 4th axis.

One thing that is hard is dealing with the Dealers, once you tell them it's a State University... they double your Budget. Anyway guys please I am not one of those guys who waste's money. I have donated 1,000's of my own tooling leftover from my own shop and make do with ebay used stuff and the sometimes ok VC brand so I try to set an example for others here by always going under my Budget or getting way more if I do go above it.
 
From my experience - I would NOT recommend Siemens, ESPECIALLY in a skewl.

I would put Haas near the top for the skewls since it is most likely that _ that is what they would be expected to run when they git out. (not likely going to start on a Yasda)

The Fanuc is very similar, and the Doosan's a solid machines, but Haas is made locally and is a very strong contender. Doosan is S Korean. I would Shirley hope that a skewl would go with the Haas.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
I don't think so...I think your on tenure, you spend your days writing books
that you make money from, and will retire at 55, getting 102% of your pay.

I think your backpedaling, from a Freudian slip.

Well now you've got me saying …. "Wow... just Wow !!! What the hells wrong with you ? I am asking about low end machines. This is for a
University Shop so I need to spend wisely and choose what will last the poor dumb taxpayer as long as possible" Did you really not understand the sentence "
Sorry man but life is too short to argue with someone like you...... believe what you want. You are not getting anymore of my time.
If anyone else wants to help... Please and thankyou.....
 
From my experience - I would NOT recommend Siemens, ESPECIALLY in a skewl.

I would put Haas near the top for the skewls since it is most likely that _ that is what they would be expected to run when they git out. (not likely going to start on a Yasda)

The Fanuc is very similar, and the Doosan's a solid machines, but Haas is made locally and is a very strong contender. Doosan is S Korean. I would Shirley hope that a skewl would go with the Haas.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

I would totally agree with that (I'm not quite so down on the Siemens control).

I think fanuc can survive a nuclear war practically and excellent "Longevity" but ten to 15 yeasr from now may turn into the machine that the students don't want to use. Doosan good iron but again Doosan as a company has had some serious financial issues in the past and is remote (like what Ox says).


I think HAAS is or could be awesome for your students/ colleagues as there is a TON of online information and the manuals are understandable.

That's very efficient from a department point of view so you don't have students asking the same "Dumb" questions time and time and time again... You can point them to excellent on-line materials and you can construct easily an appropriate custom "learning path" depending on their application needs/ project.

Dare I say there's even 'Titan academy" which is free + Fusion 360 (Autodesk getting it's hooks into students lol)…


I think HAAS as "Platform " offers a lot of well structured accessible resources that overall WILL be time saving.

I do watch some of those "HAAS tip of the day" and they do seem to really want to push best practice (which is great I think).

So if you want to save the Tax payer more dollar finding the answers to things can be very time consuming, so HAAS might be a very efficient economy on that tax payer "Bang for your buck" time IS money "Thing".

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@UCRmachine maybe consider or check out a VMmachine (from Haas) finer pitch ball screws and scales (might be an option, I know it is on the VM 6)… Possibly better contouring and precision but slower machine but might be fine for University environment rather than (Balls to the wall 100% commercial production environment) ?

I was thinking Okuma M-560V (will last forever also) but wonder about long term maintenance costs...

One of my criteria would be "Is it cheap to crash"..? I think HAAS falls nicely into that category.
 
Well now you've got me saying …. "Wow... just Wow !!! What the hells wrong with you ? I am asking about low end machines. This is for a
University Shop so I need to spend wisely and choose what will last the poor dumb taxpayer as long as possible" Did you really not understand the sentence "
Sorry man but life is too short to argue with someone like you...... believe what you want. You are not getting anymore of my time.
If anyone else wants to help... Please and thankyou.....

To be honest I think Digger Doug is really OK... Has good "value" good things to say...

Being originally from the UK we tend to be a lot more "Rough and ready" / come from more humble backgrounds in academic environment yet capable.

I think in the USA there's this Blue collar vs White collar thing / friction so "students" / academics are perceived as having a much higher smackability factor in the USA from the shop floor.


When I first came to the states a lot of older "peeps" I worked with on the shop floor served in Vietnam so there is this idea or connotation of privileged (college boy) draft dodger … Ironically I get on very well with folks from the military/ "Peeps" that have served (in general)some of those guys became very good friends of mine in some cases.[Just takes time to learn what their "Bag" is so I try to listen as much as I can.].

Hey it's the internet and it's sometimes a shame that some of these "Peeps" on line can't hang out face to face. IMTS can be good for that...

_____________________________


There's always someone that gets rubbed the wrong way... As I have said take the good with the bad but don't be anyone's "B*tch" either.

Anyway stuff to get on with :cheers:
 
Naysers be damned (:D). Haas is what you want in that environment. Easy control (that will 'transfer' across all their machines), easy to learn, good value (for what you are doing).
 
The Siemens with their "ShopMill" onboard CAM has it's place for guys coming in from the toolroom that don't think that they can handle G code. (which is completely bogus if they have been running from a DRO already, but ..)

But running a Siemens (or possibly Mazatrol, Hurco, or others) sets the kids up - ready to run ... a Siemens. They would be completely lost on anything else. (less?)

My experience with Siemens support leaves a bit to be desired. I have called in for programming help on 2 different occassions for clarification for filling out info blocks for apps that are not gone over well in the manuals, only to be told 2wice now that nobody there likely knows anymore since my control(s) are so old now. (early 2000's)

I'm sure that Haas and Fanuc could remember how to program a 12-15 yr old control...

And also - my experience with Siemens high end hardware is second to none! :cloud9:
You're asking about their entry level equipment, and my experience with that is that it is MUCH less quality and reliable.

At the same time - I don't even know what machine that you would be looking at - that would have a Siemens on it?



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Thank you …. I am leaning towards the Haas And I like the Trak LMP too. We have a Haas TMP1 right now, It is an ok machine but it's not designed to be a VMC if you know what I mean. They bought it before I got here and actually thought it was a high-end VMC. I don't really train machinists..... we train Mechanical engineers. Before I got here students were not allowed to use CNC's or CAM. I have to work with them closely as most have never ran any sort of machinery. Very few have any feel for CNC so I only have three or 4 that I trust to use the Haas. We also have a TRM and A DPM ProtoTrak(I think they are better iron than the TPM!) so They start there and then prove that they can use them well before they get to the Haas.
I am an older guy who retired and came back here to see if I could help young engineers with my 45 years of mostly high end R&D machining experience. They really don't have the time to learn machining, So we do our best, I settle for teaching them how to solve problems, Define problems and how to communicate with other people. I am proud that I have helped a number of our kids have internships at JPL and SpaceX and one guy spent his summer machining at Langley for NASA.

I am in my 60's they are in their very early 20's... we have a big generation gap. But once we get to know each other we have a great time. I hope some of you other old guys think about this as a retirement job …. it sure beats trying to find something to fill you days when this is all you know and all you are interested in. Another perk is I get to talk to and help out lot's of different types of research from Entomology to Brain research and high end Physics. Any way sorry for the slant off topic.
 
Thank you …. I am leaning towards the Haas And I like the Trak LMP too. We have a Haas TMP1 right now, It is an ok machine but it's not designed to be a VMC if you know what I mean. They bought it before I got here and actually thought it was a high-end VMC. I don't really train machinists..... we train Mechanical engineers. Before I got here students were not allowed to use CNC's or CAM. I have to work with them closely as most have never ran any sort of machinery. Very few have any feel for CNC so I only have three or 4 that I trust to use the Haas. We also have a TRM and A DPM ProtoTrak(I think they are better iron than the TPM!) so They start there and then prove that they can use them well before they get to the Haas.
I am an older guy who retired and came back here to see if I could help young engineers with my 45 years of mostly high end R&D machining experience. They really don't have the time to learn machining, So we do our best, I settle for teaching them how to solve problems, Define problems and how to communicate with other people. I am proud that I have helped a number of our kids have internships at JPL and SpaceX and one guy spent his summer machining at Langley for NASA.

I am in my 60's they are in their very early 20's... we have a big generation gap. But once we get to know each other we have a great time. I hope some of you other old guys think about this as a retirement job …. it sure beats trying to find something to fill you days when this is all you know and all you are interested in. Another perk is I get to talk to and help out lot's of different types of research from Entomology to Brain research and high end Physics. Any way sorry for the slant off topic.


We could quote you a Brother with a 4th in that range. Let me know if you would like a quote. We are close by and will not stick it to you. Let me know by PM if you would like a quote.


Andy Dukes
Yamazen
 
I would agree with the Haas control for training students. I worked as a grad student teaching seniors alongside the machine shop manager and it was the very intuitive. If you get someone who is hooked on machining, they can figure any of them out, but the average student would do best with Haas. Rogue Willie on here is now the shop manager at the school I graduated from, so you might send him a message and get some insight from him. We had two Haas machines and two bridgeport CNCs. They just recently did a centroid upgrade on the bridgeport mill, so they should have experience with that one by now.
 
<snip>
At the same time - I don't even know what machine that you would be looking at - that would have a Siemens on it?



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox


DMG Mori CMX 1100V

Choice of Fansuc , Heiden-pain and able seaman Stains*.

Would be one machine that would "Do" Siemens.

2outof3 / Andy made a very good point a few weeks ago... DMG-Mori that over the years they have cancelled many lines and messed about with stuff rather than incremental improvement on a single platform (that was his point). The Dura machines were good.

I'd give the CMX 1100V about 8 years to see if it would have any capability to take a bite out of HAAS's market.

I honestly can't see anything business wise for the next 2o years or more that would "Nuke" HAAS. It's a very successful business and if you are in California I don't think you can go wrong.[Like what Ox has said].

Gene HAAS has made really good concessions to the non-profit and academic sector...

[Now I bugger off promise !].

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* Captain Pugwash joke... The things Kids were allowed to wathc in the 1970's in Britain would be banned today. "Seaman Stains, Master Bates and Roger the Cabin Boy"... CAPTAIN PUGWASH - Episode 1 (Down The Hatch) - YouTube
 








 
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