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10ee Kinamatic / Back Gear issues:

Zap921

Cast Iron
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Ok,need some help with some preliminary thoughts on this problem. Have heard some strange noises coming from the back gear area for a while now but it comes and goes. Sounds like a loose flywheel that is struck occasionally and makes a musical chime when it does occur. So I finally took the cover off the back gear and everything seemed ok as far as wear but you guys can be the verdict on that. Didn't solve the problem of rotating that shaft of the Kinamatic and hear that musical clank every once in a while as I was rotating the shaft of the motor. I'm attaching some pics of the inside of the back gears and also an audio clip of the noise coming from behind the back gear casing in the armature area of the motor. At least that is where it sounds like it is coming from. Give me some ideas of where to go from here please. Also note that I'm getting some spikes in RPM's lately as thought there is power surges, these happen randomly.
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Audio coming:


1968 Square dial with Kinamatic 5HP motor.
 
Looking at a manual that I just found on the internet, I think that the fan you speak of is in the rear of the motor farthest from the back gears. This sounds as though it's coming from just behind the back gears where I believe the commutator section is. Haven't pulled the motor out yet. Are parts still available for this motor from 1968? In searching forum posts, I see the Kinamatic 5HP motor is hard to come by nowadays but parts are the question. It still runs, so I hope that is a good sign. For some reason I can't log into my website server to host the audio that I recorded. I'll try again tomorrow morning.
 
I don't think that's normal.......
20190627_162741[1].jpg
Sorry it's sideways, uploaded straight from my phone.
 
I have run into these motors packed with dirt and stuff, I have mentioned many times here regarding the module drive machines, that the motor needs to be in top shape for the drive to work like it should with a snappy response.
The fan system draws dirty air in just below the motor, apparently they should be service in less then a 50+ year interval.
 
Thanks donie, got to take a few more pics and write down the wiring before I pull it out and look inside. Hoping it's nothing serious wrong with the old girl. I'll bet she weighs a couple hundred pounds.
 
I have a MG driven machine with the big open 3hp motor, it seems to be more self cleaning then the newer compact 5hp motors.

It was pointed out to me long ago, one gear that should not be shifted with the machine in motion is the backgear. Even though, on module machines, they have a safety solenoid to prevent the backgear from shifting above 200rpms, it still grinds the crap out of the faces of the gear teeth, and runs that metal through the expensive bearings.
Generally the only knob that should be shifted in motion is the CDE knob for a quick selection of 3 power feeds, though, the feed clutches should be disengaged, and reasonable discretion.
 
Well the answer has revealed itself. You be the judge of my problem:
20190628_154448.jpg20190628_154400.jpg20190628_154405.jpg20190628_154414.jpg20190628_154434.jpg
I'm sure you can figure out who the culprit was. So the two bottom covers for the brushes/commutator were left off, evidently for airflow which was ok in a shop environment but not in a garage in Ohio setting for a couple of years unused. On the otherhand, I'm one happy camper as everything inside appears to be in very good shape and the backgears were in good shape. I got some stainless wire mesh to cover the bottom ports and still allow airflow without new residents moving in. I'll finish putting it back in the lathe tomorrow and take for a test run. Man, did I say I'm happy about this!!!

Crap sorry again for the sideways pics, kinda in a hurry. The pic with the walnut below the brush is where the covers should be and will be.
 
The module machine I have was made later, the motor is a 5hp Louis Allis Flexitorque, similar to the GE, the lower brush covers were left off at the factory. Might be a good idea to research that before installing lower covers.
Your motor looks really clean inside, must be low hours.
 
Yep, my lower covers were also left off. I'm just going to put some wire mesh as covers so that it can still force air through there but not allow the rodents. Most if not all of this damage was done while it sat idle in a old garage for years. My original pics of the lathe show all the walnuts and everything else the mice and chipmunks dragged into this thing. I just never thought about or knew the lower covers were off the motor as you can't see them when the motor is installed.
 
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Well, back together and everything is running smooth as ever. Here is the rodent proof screens now installed.
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Well the answer has revealed itself. You be the judge of my problem:
View attachment 259928View attachment 259929View attachment 259930View attachment 259931View attachment 259932
I'm sure you can figure out who the culprit was. So the two bottom covers for the brushes/commutator were left off, evidently for airflow which was ok in a shop environment but not in a garage in Ohio setting for a couple of years unused. On the otherhand, I'm one happy camper as everything inside appears to be in very good shape and the backgears were in good shape. I got some stainless wire mesh to cover the bottom ports and still allow airflow without new residents moving in. I'll finish putting it back in the lathe tomorrow and take for a test run. Man, did I say I'm happy about this!!!

Crap sorry again for the sideways pics, kinda in a hurry. The pic with the walnut below the brush is where the covers should be and will be.

You should feel lucky! Com is looking great! It will clean up handsomely. It will take some work, but that is the single most important thing to keep clean and tuned up in a DC motor.
 
You should feel lucky! Com is looking great! It will clean up handsomely. It will take some work, but that is the single most important thing to keep clean and tuned up in a DC motor.
Thanks and boy do I feel lucky!
 
I wouldn't do anything to that commutator. The motor has probably been refurbished in the recent past since factories typically didn't paint everything with red Glyptal. That may well be the original commutator, never turned because the undercuts look too good for the average motor shop.

These motors seem to use a brush composition that puts the wear on the brushes instead of the copper. The Modular that I look after is in everyday use in a job shop and its commutator looks like yours. The bottom covers are off that one also, but it is surprisingly clean, probably because the owners are careful about sweeping up.

I have a spare 5 hp GE motor from a 10EE that was parted out because most of was worn out. The back gears are badly worn but the commutator looks perfect. This motor had covers on the lower openings, obviously shop made and with different screws. I have no way of knowing how much or how hard it was run that way but there is no sign of overheating.

Bill
 
The machine looks good from the photos. When I look at these machines, I observe the top of the carriage, if the machine has had a lot of use like my 51 mfg model, the sharp edges of the top of the carriage gets rounded over from miles of steel that have gone through the machine. Also, the legend plates like the fed/thread plate gets all banged up and hard to read, those look to be still crisp on you machine.
Back in those times, consumer goods were not so good, but the EEs only got better and considerably more expensive. There were the famous European and other machines trying to make inroads to Monarchs domination of the defense/nuclear industry for a small lathe regardless of cost, so Monarch again revamped the design to the machine you have, showing the heavier tailstock with 1 3/4" quill, and circulating oil in the headstock now with only one oil window.
Monarch simply kicked the competitors butt, in accuracy/durability, and also very important ease of use.
 
Thanks donie for the insight! This machine really makes me happy and proud to own. And hearing from you that I have a decent machine for its age just adds to that sense of pride. Love this thing!!
 
I think the only lathe I dont like is the Dunlap 109, but I am sure there are folks out that has made great things on them. When I was first exposed to the EE in the late 70s* I was impressed by the ease of use, and parts coming out of the machine with the "Bling", the bling being important, because people are like Bower Birds, they like "Shiny Things". I am not joking at all, if its your boss, a customer, or yourself, a nice looking part often goes further then a perhaps more accurate part.
I looked at the machines back then and realized it would not be practical to own a tube driven one, the plant where I worked had electricians, but only one could maintain the 3 machines.
The only alternative was the motor generator models, and those were a rare find, with prices around $10000 through the 1980s, working used module drive machines in only fair condition often over $20000. Not many used dealers wanted to mess with them, as accumulated electrical problems could really bite them bad if they had to buy a machine back fron a customer, and the fact that even highly skilled industrial electricians will have to go through a learning curve on how the machine works and why.
I was able to get a Motor Generator machine in the late 90s in the bid to make more money machining titanium parts for gear heads, and it worked out great. The nearby Sandvic zirconium/titanium extrusion plant has a variety of shorts, in a variety of alloys and hardness. The EE, with coolant will cut all that stuff along with the prehard 4000 steels. So I ended up phasing out my 2 Southbend heavy 10s.
I found this forum in the early 2000s, and took a chance on buying a module drive machine that didnt run correctly. There is a combination of experienced machinist along with those that have a greater understanding of electronics, that were able to crack the puzzle regarding these machines.
I sure I am not alone to realize, that this forum makes it possible for a regular guy to own one of these machines. Perhaps a regular guy off a half bubble, but with some gumption!

* at that time I was young, low in the order, I was only allowed to use the worst of 3 machines, and only a few times, I was on a gearhead lathe making hydraulic parts most all the time. the old guys got to use the Monarchs and the jigborers.
 
Thanks donie for the history on your path to the Monarch 10ee. I am not a machinist by trade but a retired policeman that has always loved motors, building, and taking things apart. Machinist is something that is right up my alley and just happened to stumble across a 10ee as my first lathe. This forum and you guys as members have helped me beyond my dreams for fixing and becoming a novice machinist. Wouldn't want to be anywhere else and definitely not without my 10ee and you guys!
 
I think the only lathe I dont like is the Dunlap 109, but I am sure there are folks out that has made great things on them. When I was first exposed to the EE in the late 70s* I was impressed by the ease of use, and parts coming out of the machine with the "Bling", the bling being important, because people are like Bower Birds, they like "Shiny Things". I am not joking at all, if its your boss, a customer, or yourself, a nice looking part often goes further then a perhaps more accurate part.

I found this forum in the early 2000s, and took a chance on buying a module drive machine that didnt run correctly. There is a combination of experienced machinist along with those that have a greater understanding of electronics, that were able to crack the puzzle regarding these machines.
I sure I am not alone to realize, that this forum makes it possible for a regular guy to own one of these machines. Perhaps a regular guy off a half bubble, but with some gumption!

I call that the magpie nature of the human animal. A few days ago the owner of a shop and I were passing a piece on the shipping table. He said "I'm even amazed at the things we make." It is gorgeous, a flanged tube with keyhole slots and other detail, all almost a mirror finish, machined from solid.

Over ten years ago I contacted the aforementioned owner about a some grinding and he took me on a tour. One thing he had was a Modular 10EE that they couldn't get running. A short time later I needed some quick cash, so I offered to get the lathe running. I'm one of the few people left who worked with thyratrons when they were new. I didn't like them then and my opinion hasn't changed, but I know how to deal with them. My primary profession, if I can be said to have one, is electronics with machining second. I got the lathe running, still is, and that started a relationship that has been mutually beneficial in many different ways.

Bill
 








 
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