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Dave's '56 10ee conservation/restoration thread

Vetro

Plastic
Joined
May 8, 2020
Hi all,
with some friendly advice here and a deep breath I pulled the trigger on this beauty. I am in thoroughly over my head, but am humbly determined to be a good caretaker to this beast. She is, as best as i can determine, a '56 10ee with a DC drive rebuild. She was previously owned by the machinist who's shop was above mine. when he, unfortunately, passed away recently and the auction buyer backed out so i got an opportunity to pick it up and took it. Aside from being bone dry and stripped of tooling she appears to be functional, if a little well worn. Spent yesterday oiling her up, starting to remove grease and grime, and making a tbolt for the tool post off my other lathe so i could take a first cut and see what was what. My goal with this machine is to clean and tighten it up as much as possible without any more major interventions/downtime than necessary...that said, not afraid to take on projects and learn new skills when needed, and i dont depend on it directly for income.
I am a glass worker by trade(my metal working usually centers around tool making for glass) and have only limited restoration experience. I also dont have a mill and the one i usually have access to is unavailable at present due to the lockdown. I do have another small lathe and basic home shop level metal fabrication stuff, welder, etc..
I have...a bunch of questions..I'm working my way through old posts, but feel free to point me to stuff if I'm rehashing old topics.
Thanks in advance for all the help, past present and future!
All that said, here she is after a little half assed cleaning!
IMG_20200514_203705.jpgIMG_20200512_180015.jpgIMG_20200512_175538.jpgIMG_20200512_174409.jpgIMG_20200512_174607.jpg
 
Your 'new' lathe looks very clean inside.

The typical problem with the 10ee lathes is the pump in the apron that pumps lubricant to the ways.. With as clean and well maintained as it appears, you might find that the apron pump is working as it should.. Otherwise that is one thing that should be attended to.
Since your lathe is a square dial, you can power the apron pump by running the feed rod. With the feed rod turning and the left/right push pull direction knob either pulled or pushed in, the carriage gears will be turning, and there is an eccentric on a carriage drive gear that operates the oil pump. The lubrication pump is also operated any time you run the carriage left or right wth the hand carriage wheel.
Make sure you have Vactra way oil in the apron and run the carriage feed rod for at least 30 minutes run the carriage left and right and run the crossfeed in and out and check the ways to see if they have fresh oil or not.. Hopefully you will find fresh lubricant..

If not there are several threads covering the cleaning and repair of the Bijur lubrication system..

You can check for obvious wear on the ways by removing the wiper cover and wiper that covers the front flat-way that the tailstock rides on. There should be a few .001" up to maybe .010" clearance between the underside of the saddle and the TS flat-way. If there is no clearance, then the front carriage V-way has worn enough to allow the saddle to drop down and close up the gap. From the way that the mechanicals are clean and in apparently good condition, I'm going to guess that your lathe might not have a lot of wear..

Congratulations on your purchase.

DualValve
 
Thanks DualValve, just filled up the apron with fresh vactra and will perform those checks today!

Your 'new' lathe looks very clean inside.

The typical problem with the 10ee lathes is the pump in the apron that pumps lubricant to the ways.. With as clean and well maintained as it appears, you might find that the apron pump is working as it should.. Otherwise that is one thing that should be attended to.
Since your lathe is a square dial, you can power the apron pump by running the feed rod. With the feed rod turning and the left/right push pull direction knob either pulled or pushed in, the carriage gears will be turning, and there is an eccentric on a carriage drive gear that operates the oil pump. The lubrication pump is also operated any time you run the carriage left or right wth the hand carriage wheel.
Make sure you have Vactra way oil in the apron and run the carriage feed rod for at least 30 minutes run the carriage left and right and run the crossfeed in and out and check the ways to see if they have fresh oil or not.. Hopefully you will find fresh lubricant..

If not there are several threads covering the cleaning and repair of the Bijur lubrication system..

You can check for obvious wear on the ways by removing the wiper cover and wiper that covers the front flat-way that the tailstock rides on. There should be a few .001" up to maybe .010" clearance between the underside of the saddle and the TS flat-way. If there is no clearance, then the front carriage V-way has worn enough to allow the saddle to drop down and close up the gap. From the way that the mechanicals are clean and in apparently good condition, I'm going to guess that your lathe might not have a lot of wear..

Congratulations on your purchase.

DualValve
 
first(of many) questions...

So, am i correct in thinking that my powerfeeds are basically useless with this drive? as far as i can tell the backgears max out at about 200rpm and are required for the feeds, right?

...also, any idea where the drain plug for the backgear box is located? it was bone dry so i just loaded it up but im going to want to flush it properly at some point and couldnt find it...and in a possibly related question, whats the deal with the open conduit/pipe sticking up out of the bottom?IMG_20200512_174607.jpg

Thanks y'all!
 
So, am i correct in thinking that my powerfeeds are basically useless with this drive? as far as i can tell the backgears max out at about 200rpm and are required for the feeds, right?

I don't know what you are saying here

BAck gears are unrelated to feeds, they simply control spindle speeds
 
Don't worry too much, looks like you have a good base to work from, the lathe is nicely equipped from the factory. In fact it has the very rare lever on the control rod, that allows you to quickly and safely shut the machine off at the gear box location.
It looks like some one tried to reinforce the upper left headstock cover for use with a lever closer, that can be cleaned up.
And that was from your crappy photos.
 
lol, sorry...all this gearing stuff is brand new to me. when i shift from "open belt" to "back gears" my max spindle speed slows to 200rpm or so. i couldnt get the feeds to engage in "open belt" so i assumed back gear was required for them to work. probably just had something else set wrong...i need to take a closer look at the belts and pulleys because i am clearly not understanding things correctly :D
I don't know what you are saying here

BAck gears are unrelated to feeds, they simply control spindle speeds
 
Don't worry too much, looks like you have a good base to work from, the lathe is nicely equipped from the factory. In fact it has the very rare lever on the control rod, that allows you to quickly and safely shut the machine off at the gear box location.
It looks like some one tried to reinforce the upper left headstock cover for use with a lever closer, that can be cleaned up.
And that was from your crappy photos.

lol...thanks for the info!...and sorry about the crappy photos:). if there is anything in particular that i can take a pic of or improve, let me know.
 
it has the very rare lever on the control rod, that allows you to quickly and safely shut the machine off at the gear box location.

Donie, I have never seen that lever before except on a round dial with ELSR. How does it work?

Vetro, could you take a close up of that lever? Also, did you get your manual from Monarch? It would be really interesting to see the drawing that shows the parts breakdown for the feed shaft, including that lever.

-Dave
 
Threading and surfacing should be 100% functional...

yeah, got it now. even played around with the elsr system and did some threading. all appears to function properly. pretty cool! could see it maybe being less useful for a pro but nice for someone like me that is lazy and not necessarily in a huge rush. Maybe nice for threading up to a shoulder or whatever

BTW: A 10EE has no "back" gears (.. at the LAST stage of a drivetrain immediately before the spindle itself, or "output" of power) - on a 10EE.

What you have instead is a reduction gearbox (at the FIRST stage of the drivetrain- directly off the motor, or "input" of power).

"Reduction gearbox" is the standard nomenclature.

got it...but it is referred to on the machine as back gears? ...or am i missing something...again :-)


The gearing as drives the leadscrew and half-nuts for threading in locked sync to the spindle gets its input inside the headstock, taken off the spindle by a three position sliding selector that engages a dog clutch at either side for Left, Right, or Neutral AKA "neither".

There is no provision for slip in a threading operation. Threads would get ugly.


Surfacing:

The gearing for surfacing feed driveshaft gets its input from a flat belt, rear body of the spindle. In theory the belt can slip. In practice it doesn't by enough to easily detect, and the clutches in the apron may not slip much, either. Nonetheless, surfacing is NOT "locked" or synchronous as threading is, nor meant to be.

got it, thank you. that makes a lot of sense

On the bottom. Really.. it is.

Monarch were notorious for being able to walk on water when it struck their fancy, but didn't ordinarily f**k with gravity.

Camera might not easily see it, but your fingers should feel the tattle tale shape of the classical square-headed drain plug?

lol, i know. stupid question but for the life of me the only thing i can find coming out of the bottom is that disconnected pipe that comes up the left side of it. have never seen a drain like that...but once again, probably missing something. I'll get in there and take some pics



Someone has "been at" your 10EE with that low-voltage DC Drive conversion. Not easy to tell what they have done, cut up, or abandoned.

That goes onto your WAIL List (Worry About It Later).

haha, noted...it has that "Hoffacker" rebuild plate on the front so at the least there is that

So far, seems ONLY the WiaD DC drive has been removed, all the "mechanicals" still original, switches and speed controls yet to be confirmed.

Still in there! I assume it likely doesnt function but appears to be in good physical condition. I'll take a pic

It should be able to do all the things it could ever do. Just with lower power and speed. Which isn't hard to build back up to normal, either.

hmmm, build back up to normal you say...have no idea what i would do with 4000 rpm but seems like a good time!



It will get easier when you order your "as built" manual from Monarch Lathe.

Call or email Terri at Monarch with your serial number, order the manual for it "as built", and ask to whom it originally shipped.

on it, thanks!


A "gather" for transfer of glass looks much the same as a "blowpipe" to a layman, but calling stuff by the right name makes life easier on the lungs.

heh, true enough...i will learn! thanks for taking the time to educate me. already having a blast making myself new glass tools on it
 
Donie, I have never seen that lever before except on a round dial with ELSR. How does it work?

Vetro, could you take a close up of that lever? Also, did you get your manual from Monarch? It would be really interesting to see the drawing that shows the parts breakdown for the feed shaft, including that lever.

-Dave

havent gotten the manual yet, will soon. as far as the lever, happy to...but still trying to figure out which one yall are talking about, lol.
 
starting to address some issues..

-couple things ive noticed need attention. my tumbler lever is broken off. still works fine if i get into it with pliers but would love to fix it. looks like maybe a taper pin holding it on? any advice or links on removal/replacement would be welcome
-one of the pulley bearings(i think) seems a bit noisy, large middle one in the picture
-carriage wheel is pulling out, do i need to make a little spanner?
IMG_20200514_205244.jpg00100lrPORTRAIT_00100_BURST20200514202442914_COVER.jpgIMG_20200512_174607.jpg
Thanks!
 
-couple things ive noticed need attention. my tumbler lever is broken off. still works fine if i get into it with pliers but would love to fix it. looks like maybe a taper pin holding it on? any advice or links on removal/replacement would be welcome

Taper pin to pull it. You should be able to make a replacement pretty easily.

10ee_tumbler_lever.gif


-one of the pulley bearings(i think) seems a bit noisy, large middle one in the picture

Feed input into the gearbox. More likely one of the idlers, I'd think, but it can also be gear mesh at the a/b change.

-carriage wheel is pulling out, do i need to make a little spanner?

I suspect that things are just a little cruddy there and need cleaning. That knob with the keys should slot into the hub, and that ties the handle into the shaft. The assembly is a clutch for threading allowing you to remove the handwheel from the job.

10ee_carriage_clutch.gif
 
New noise that i really dont like...

so after some light work it seems to have developed a low buzz. after a whole lot of crawling about first here, then on you tube i found a video by pbungum demonstrating a similar noise which then led me back here to this post..

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...5/index5.html?highlight=spindle+bearing+noise

...he chased his noise from the bottom to the top of his machine, his description of it in his post is very similar including it being especially audible at the center and back of the spindle reservoir and less so with ear pressed over the bearing cavities. I fully expected to find the noise when i popped the spindle cover but, no luck. He only got rid of it by changing out his front spindle bearings...but..his spindle started out notchy, and mine is pretty much flawless, as near as i can tell(though i havent done much careful testing for runout yet, my surface finish seems ok and hand spinning is very smooth and nearly silent). Also, in the end he found a bunch of metal inside his front bearing retaining plate(the part that the nose sticks out of that bolts to the headstock as i understand it)that may have been the culprit, so i cant help wonder if i might have a similar problem.

Here is a short vid of it in action. you'll hear it kick in as it gets up to about 4 or 5 hundred rpm, about 7 or 8 seconds in(lot of background noise so you may have to turn it up)...
YouTube
and here you can hear it very clearly with my phone held at the top of the headstock
YouTube

so, what do yall think? am i making any sense at all? my first thought, and what i was going to do anyway, is to give it a good flush. any advice dealing with the sight glass(that is where the front spindle drains,right?) wondering if that is the kind of thing where i need to have a replacement gasket ready because the old one is going to disintegrate...also any tips on how to not make a total mess? have never drained out of a sight glass before.

and if that doesn't solve the problem, whats next? after reading pbungums adventures i am feeling a bit nervous. i dont have either his level of skill or equipment, and while im more than willing to learn it would mean lots o downtime and...this lathe has ruined me for others :D
help me oh wise ones!
 
Thanks Thermite!

Thanks so much for the detailed response! incredibly helpful! ordered up a fresh o ring assortment, some bottle brushes and a baster!

What is the easiest way to determine if its the tach? do i have to pull it? any tips on that process?
 
Use a stick up against the tach and the other end to you r ear if it is louder at the tach then the bearings it could be the tach making the noise. You just need to disconnect the drive
 








 
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