Hendey Collet Box parts

One of my projects involves recreating the collet set for the 1909 Hendey 16x8 gear head lathe. It shipped new with a 3H collet set, but that was all gone when I got the lathe. I've been piecing it back together and in my acquisitions I ended up with a pair of wood collet boxes from the later 1920's Hendeys, however they are missing the metal clamp and pipe parts that connect them to the lathe.

All I have to go by are catalog and patent drawings, so I'm starting this thread to share what I come up with. I plan to complete both boxes. One I'll use and the other is spoken for by another PM member.




The patent:
Patent Images

Complete box can also be seen in page 2 of this brochure:
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/430/18396.pdf

I do have the complete collet set for the 16" Hendey (probably late 1940's vintage) it's complete with box, draw bar, tube and way clamp. In my version the Draw bar is inside the box and draw bar fits inside the mounting tube.
I can try to get my camera to work so I can make photos.

Froneck said:

I do have the complete collet set for the 16" Hendey (probably late 1940's vintage) it's complete with box, draw bar, tube and way clamp. In my version the Draw bar is inside the box and draw bar fits inside the mounting tube.
I can try to get my camera to work so I can make photos.

Click to expand...

That would be very helpful, thanks! There are five turned pieces that I need to reproduce. Can you measure some parts? I'll post some prints with what I figure from the drawings.

The first two pieces are round wood spacers to fit on either side of the collet tray. I'm not enough of a wood worker to say what the box is made out of, or what kind of wood would be best for the spacers. I considered making them out of some Polypropylene drops we have, but I think a piece of 4x4 pine will be more appropriate.



The next two pieces are a steel spacer that fits into the lower wooden spacer (this is what the collet closer actually rests on), and the tube that supports the whole set-up.



The last round part in the flange that attaches the tube to the box. There's some room for artistic interpretation on the neck dimensions. The ID, larger OD, and screw spacing I measured from the boxes. It mounts with four wood screws and clamps to the support tube with a set screw that also serves as a place to hang the knock-out rod (which is another piece I'll need to make).



I want to have a spindle nose protector too, though I might be able to just re-purpose a messed up back plate.

The last part I'll need to make is the bracket that hangs the box off the bed. I've seen drawings showing it mounted to the bed V-way, and a different style mounted to the lip of the chip pan. The chip pan style would be more out of the way, but the bed way style would be sturdier, so I think I'll go that route. This would have originally been a cast iron part, but I plan to fabricate it out of welded pieces. It has a set screw collar on one side that clamps onto the support tube, and a clamp on the other similar to a micrometer stop or taper attachment clamp. Measuring on my machine, putting the center of the V-way and the center of the collar 10" apart would seem to give a good spacing between the box and the bed, head-stock, carriage, etc. Mine will likely live right behind the head-stock beside an electrical cabinet I'm putting together. There's just enough room back there to have the two of them on there and still have the carriage and taper attachment hug up against the spindle.

I also eventually want to re-create an elevated wood tool-box and clip-board holder that I've seen pictures of supplied with some high-end Hendey Tool-room lathes. I think it was in an old machinist handbook I have so I'll need to get it scanned. They had it hanging off the bed on the far right side. I plan to make an extra V-way bracket to go towards that project as well.

I bring the bracket home tomorrow and get you the dimensions.

Two case sizes?
Just photos, not mine.

John

jhruska said:

Two case sizes?
Just photos, not mine.
View attachment 310021View attachment 310022View attachment 310023
John

Click to expand...

I think the 2H and 3H were the same size case, but the hole size and spacing on the collet board was different.

M.B.Naegle:

You are correct about Cabinet size up to a point. the physical size remained the same but the number of Collets varied. There were several sizes of No.23 Collet Boxes for the No.2 Collets, they held 18, 20, 23, 27, 39, 40, 51 and 76. If the same size box was used for the No.3 Collets it would obviously hold fewer Collets. The No.2 76 Collet box would only hold 54 No.3 Collets. Only one size of Collet Box was used for the No.6 and No.8 Collets with the number of No.6 Collets being 24, 33, 49 and 58 and the No.8 Collets being 19. To accommodate the various sizes of Collets that could be stored in one box, the number of holes in the shelf was varied. Besides the standard Hendey Collets, the Cabinets were made to hold No.1, No.2 and No.3 Sjogren style collets. the No.1 sets were 20, 32 and 42 collets. The No.2 set was 18, 22 and 28 Collets and the No.3 set was 44 Collets. While standard Hendey Collets were thresded, the type of Sjogren Collets was determined by Spindle Nose Type.

Hendeyman

hendeyman said:

M.B.Naegle:

You are correct about Cabinet size up to a point. the physical size remained the same but the number of Collets varied. There were several sizes of No.23 Collet Boxes for the No.2 Collets, they held 18, 20, 23, 27, 39, 40, 51 and 76. If the same size box was used for the No.3 Collets it would obviously hold fewer Collets. The No.2 76 Collet box would only hold 54 No.3 Collets. Only one size of Collet Box was used for the No.6 and No.8 Collets with the number of No.6 Collets being 24, 33, 49 and 58 and the No.8 Collets being 19. To accommodate the various sizes of Collets that could be stored in one box, the number of holes in the shelf was varied. Besides the standard Hendey Collets, the Cabinets were made to hold No.1, No.2 and No.3 Sjogren style collets. the No.1 sets were 20, 32 and 42 collets. The No.2 set was 18, 22 and 28 Collets and the No.3 set was 44 Collets. While standard Hendey Collets were thresded, the type of Sjogren Collets was determined by Spindle Nose Type.

Hendeyman

Click to expand...

The two boxes I'm working with measure 9" square and 7 1/4" tall. Each holds 17 3H collets.

Big thanks to hendeyman! I've got prints!

I needed to do some other turning work today, so I started with the flange that screws to the bottom of the collet box. The original was cast iron with only the mating surfaces machined, but I made mine from a 5"x1/2" drop and a piece of tubing welded together. After I got the pieces into the lathe I realized that the 5" disc was hardened (possibly 4140?), but I went ahead and cut it out anyway. I used some small carbide inserts on the South Bend Heavy 10 and it came out very well making some nice blue ribbon-y chips. The mating surfaces and overall dimensions are all to print. There's still some visible weld marks between the pieces but I plan to oil blacken the pieces to blend it all together.

Pictures are inbound but they're currently getting up to 1100 degrees. I ended up annealing them so I can drill and countersink the wood-screw holes.

Another questions for any wood-workers on here: there are actually three wooden spacers I'll need to make for the collet box (in post #4, the third spacer I had thought would be steel, but prints call for wood which makes more sense as it won't mar the collet tube). most of the prints just call for "wood" except for one place it references mahogany, which of course is the traditional tool-box hardwood. I'm reconsidering my previous thought of using pine as I think it will be too soft for the task and may swell more with oil, but I'm not certain. I'll need to get some African mahogany for some other projects related to this lathe, but I'm wondering if there is another cheaper hard wood that's up to the task and would work well turning into 2-3" round spacers? I read somewhere that Chinese Tallow turns nicely, and it grows like a weed around our property, but I'm not sure how much better it would be than generic pine? It doesn't have to match the mahogany collet box, but I wouldn't want it to stick out like a sore thumb either.

After about 30 minutes in the oven and time to cool off, the flanges drilled much easier and are now done (minus getting blackened). The print calls out for a #8 wood screw but no length specified, but a 1" looks like it should work well enough.


I also stripped some of the finish off of one of the boxes to get a better look at the actual wood color and grain.

M.B. Naegle:

While researching some drawings for an 18 inch Hendey, I found the drawings for the No.68 Collet Box. The recommended wood was Birch. It
was the first time I had seen any specific type of wood mentioned for the construction of the Collet Boxes or the Tool Cabinet. On either the No.1 or No.2 Pyramid drawings there was some mention of Oak. There was also some mention of the use of a varnish stain, but I don't remember which product it was referring. A special type of Collet was offered between 1910 and 1915, the closer screwed directly onto the Spindle Nose. It may have been these Collet Boxes that mentioned the varnish stain.

As a side bar on Collets, prior to 1900, Hendey offered a greater selection of Collets than just Nos. 2,3,6 and 8. The numbering sequence
actually ran from ! to 15, but not all sizes were offered and some required special adaptors to be able to us them. A good example is the
No.15 Collet that shows up on eBay once in a while. It requires a special mounting chuck, similar to the Collet Chuck used on the Brown
and Sharpe No.13 Tool and Cutter Grinder. From what I have been able to find , the Special Chuck was supplied to Hendey by Cushman. When
I see a No.15 Collet for sale on eBay, I contact the seller to let them know that the Collet won't fit a modern Hendey without the Special Chuck.

Hendeyman

hendeyman said:

M.B. Naegle:

While researching some drawings for an 18 inch Hendey, I found the drawings for the No.68 Collet Box. The recommended wood was Birch. It
was the first time I had seen any specific type of wood mentioned for the construction of the Collet Boxes or the Tool Cabinet. On either the No.1 or No.2 Pyramid drawings there was some mention of Oak. There was also some mention of the use of a varnish stain, but I don't remember which product it was referring. A special type of Collet was offered between 1910 and 1915, the closer screwed directly onto the Spindle Nose. It may have been these Collet Boxes that mentioned the varnish stain.

As a side bar on Collets, prior to 1900, Hendey offered a greater selection of Collets than just Nos. 2,3,6 and 8. The numbering sequence
actually ran from ! to 15, but not all sizes were offered and some required special adaptors to be able to us them. A good example is the
No.15 Collet that shows up on eBay once in a while. It requires a special mounting chuck, similar to the Collet Chuck used on the Brown
and Sharpe No.13 Tool and Cutter Grinder. From what I have been able to find , the Special Chuck was supplied to Hendey by Cushman. When
I see a No.15 Collet for sale on eBay, I contact the seller to let them know that the Collet won't fit a modern Hendey without the Special Chuck.

Hendeyman

Click to expand...

Thanks! Birch should be a lot more affordable to source. I'm still learning which woods work and look best in different applications, so I'd rather stick to the print so long as the tree-huggers don't kill me.

After consulting the drawings, these are the updated sketched for the three missing wood spacers.

Concerning the support clamp: the style represented in the prints is the style that clamps to the back bed-way. I'm considering actually casting it/them, but am trying to determine the most economical approach. To start with, I'm modeling the clamp up in CAD and from there I might send that file to a couple foundries to quote having a pattern made. My experience with that approach has been that 99% of foundries prefer to have a board-pattern that's plug-and-play with their casting process. If there's any degree of skill required to use an existing pattern or otherwise make the cast, they no-quote or quote replacing/updating the pattern. That said, to send them a print or CAD drawing and have them make a pattern, it'll likely cost over $500, before the molten iron even hits the sand. That of course covers their time and skill to produce a two sided board pattern, but also to know where to add draft and other necessary features that wouldn't be needed in the finished part.

Another approach is investment casting, which uses a one-time-use wax pattern that is then coated in ceramic before having the wax melted out. We have a few parts made this way and they have excellent detail. We have a custom injection mold to make the wax patterns which is much much more expensive to have made initially, but afterwards the castings are not too expensive. I've read somewhere that some foundries can now 3D print the wax patterns so you no longer have to have a custom injection mold unless you need the volume (since 3D printing is slower than injection). Does anyone on here have any experience with this process as far as how it compares in cost and overall head-ache?

The third option would be to make a simple loose pattern out of wood, 3D printed material, or with an existing bracket, but then the question of who will do the casting? I've worked with Miami Cast in Ohio to make two castings from a loose aluminum pattern and they did an excellent professional job that was reasonably priced, but I also got the impression that the didn't want to make a routine of it, so I want to look into some other options before I go through the trouble of making my own pattern.

I need two brackets for this project, and would like to have a third for my future Hendey tool-cabinet build. On top of that, would anyone else want a cast iron collet box bracket, as more pieces could make the cost of any pattern-work more manageable?

Maybe you have already looked at them but I was wondering if you might be able to find a ready made floor flange that were some times used for work bench and shelving feet that were close enough in size that perhaps might work with a little rework or clean up for relatively little money .
Perhaps some older style used ones may look the part more than newer ones.
Just an illustration as I remember they came in several sizes
https://www.globalindustrial.ca/p/s...annqdhGRapQBj5v-RfKuxurdjzbW0slRoCp5AQAvD_BwE
Jim

Jim Christie said:

Maybe you have already looked at them but I was wondering if you might be able to find a ready made floor flange that were some times used for work bench and shelving feet that were close enough in size that perhaps might work with a little rework or clean up for relatively little money .
Perhaps some older style used ones may look the part more than newer ones.
Just an illustration as I remember they came in several sizes
https://www.globalindustrial.ca/p/s...annqdhGRapQBj5v-RfKuxurdjzbW0slRoCp5AQAvD_BwE
Jim

Click to expand...

I considered it, but my experience has been that off the self parts will have half the dimensions you need, and others would need to be modified, or have the surrounding parts modified. The two flanges I made are welded instead of cast, but otherwise would be interchangeable with other boxes. If I were building boxes completely from scratch, something like an off-the-shelf flange would be perfect, but in this case since I'm completing two partial original boxes, I'd like to keep the pieces dimensionally to print.

It's a balance game. I was planning to make welded bed-clamps, but IF they could be cast at a reasonable price that would save a lot of time and mill-work. The flanges were simple enough to weld and still produce a part that's to-print.

Another update. I have a complete CAD model of the bed bracket and got a quote from a company that specializes in short run investment casting using 3D printed wax cores. It can be done.... for $1400 per casting . Waaaay out of the budget, but still it's cool to know that there is a "modern" solution if the traditional methods don't pan out. But for that much I'm sure we can go another route.

My next step is going to be having the bracket 3D printed in some kind of plastic that could potentially be used as a loose pattern, or cut in half to build a board pattern. The bracket is a tad under 14" long overall. We've been wanting to get into printing at our shop for various jobs but haven't yet made the investment. A couple co-workers have their own rigs at home, but the bracket is outside of their work envelope, so I'm either looking to buy a printer, or outsource it.