CNC mill with mechanical spindle orient?

Liberty_Machine · Apr 4, 2021

Might be in the market for a SMALL mill, but it needs to have mechanical spindle orient, not held by motor and belt. Why, you ask? I need to do a whole lot of in-machine broaching, but I really don't want to be abusing my Mori. So, small (20" table) CAT40 machine, small footprint, mechanical spindle lock. When not broaching, likely just use it for dovetail ops or something simple. Used is expected, not sure how old I want to go, considering repair parts availability. Old Supermax or Matsuura is what I'm aware of, off the cuff...

Ianagos · Apr 4, 2021

Fadal vmc15?
Not a very good mechanical lock but it has one. Cheap too and if you trash the spindle broaching a new one ain’t much.

DavidScott · Apr 4, 2021

I will second the Fadal 15. I never broached with it but did do thousands of parts bending tabs as part of the cycle, same lock orientation for the form tool as a broach. As long as the cutting edges on your broach are close to spindle centerline it should be good enough, and it's not a bad machine for dovetailing blocks either.

Liberty_Machine · Apr 5, 2021

The broach(es) are about 3/4" in size, used for making .06" rads down the inside corner of a 2.6" deep pocket in aluminum. Repair parts are still available for the VMC-15? The last thing I need is for the machine to be down in such a way that production comes to a halt. I see that they resurrected the line, anything good or bad to say about them? Same company or just rebadged Chinese?

Liberty_Machine · Apr 5, 2021

What I find particularly amusing.....
My first CNC was an '82 Matsuura MC-500. Compact machine, leaked fluids constantly, no enclosure or chip management. I had to sell it due to lack of space (900 sq/ft shop at the time). It was a necessary thing, since I was able to bring in the Kitamura and then later a Doosan Lynx. Now that I'm moving up to a larger shop, I find myself saying; darn, wish I hadn't of sold it!

gustafson · Apr 5, 2021

What about orienting it like they do a CAT right angle head? Only thing similar I did was pressing in about a 1000 PEMs in G10. Set up an endless cycle on a cnc knee mill with await. If you mounted it on a bearing and spun the spindle slowly it would not beat up the bearings.

Starts getting complicated to design the tool, but maybe less so than installing and maintaining a whole nother VMC

Liberty_Machine · Apr 5, 2021

Valid observation and question. One other aspect I failed to mention; the job is using ALL of my 30 pockets, no room for more tools, and I can only possibly condense the operations of one of the tools to free up a spot. I need 3 broach tools to complete the task

Ianagos · Apr 5, 2021

Liberty_Machine said:
The broach(es) are about 3/4" in size, used for making .06" rads down the inside corner of a 2.6" deep pocket in aluminum. Repair parts are still available for the VMC-15? The last thing I need is for the machine to be down in such a way that production comes to a halt. I see that they resurrected the line, anything good or bad to say about them? Same company or just rebadged Chinese?

New company is taiwan.

Old machines have more parts availability and cheaper than any Japanese brand I know of. It is way more of a hassle trying to get something for my Mazak vs for the fadal I can order it online and it will be here tomorrow or I can look on eBay and get something for dirt cheap. I have a full spare set of cards and amplifiers for my fadal for less than a power supply cost for my Mazak....

Want a 4th axis? Easy too add not much hassle and can be done for around 10k new
I have about 4K into a used setup.

There is a reason there are so many fadals hanging around. They are cheap (like haas) but actually well supported (not like haas).

If you look around you can find a beater vmc15 for a couple grand. A nice one might run you a bit more or you can rebuild it yourself pretty easily.

gustafson · Apr 5, 2021

Using all 30 tools on one job?

Interpolation is your friend

Garwood · Apr 5, 2021

Ianagos said:
New company is taiwan.

Old machines have more parts availability and cheaper than any Japanese brand I know of. It is way more of a hassle trying to get something for my Mazak vs for the fadal I can order it online and it will be here tomorrow or I can look on eBay and get something for dirt cheap. I have a full spare set of cards and amplifiers for my fadal for less than a power supply cost for my Mazak....

Want a 4th axis? Easy too add not much hassle and can be done for around 10k new
I have about 4K into a used setup.

There is a reason there are so many fadals hanging around. They are cheap (like haas) but actually well supported (not like haas).

If you look around you can find a beater vmc15 for a couple grand. A nice one might run you a bit more or you can rebuild it yourself pretty easily.

VMC15 has 30 tools???

Garwood · Apr 5, 2021

Older small machines don't often have 30 tools.

HMC's usually hold 30-60 though.

Might look for an older 300mm HMC. Most of the old Jap ones are pretty small footprint and 12k-15k lbs.

Mud · Apr 5, 2021

Can you mount the broach(es) somewhere else on the head rather than the spindle? Like the way a tommy bar mount is mounted. That would require operator intervention, but would assure orientation and no load on the spindle bearings.

Alternately, use the tommy bar locator to orient the broaching tool in the spindle and change it automatically.

Liberty_Machine · Apr 5, 2021

gustafson said:
Using all 30 tools on one job?

Interpolation is your friend

Oh, believe me, aside from a reamer for a deep tight tolerance hole, I'm making as much use of my ATC as possible, there is literally nothing more to be condensed.

@Garwood; not looking for a small machine with 30 tools! Just looking for a small mechanical spindle lock machine with, heck, 10 tools is sufficient.

70olds · Apr 6, 2021

Liberty,
Sent you a PM.

DouglasJRizzo · Apr 6, 2021

Liberty_Machine said:
Might be in the market for a SMALL mill, but it needs to have mechanical spindle orient, not held by motor and belt. Why, you ask? I need to do a whole lot of in-machine broaching, but I really don't want to be abusing my Mori. So, small (20" table) CAT40 machine, small footprint, mechanical spindle lock. When not broaching, likely just use it for dovetail ops or something simple. Used is expected, not sure how old I want to go, considering repair parts availability. Old Supermax or Matsuura is what I'm aware of, off the cuff...

Some older VMC's have a shot pin style spindle lock. However MANY tool builders frown at broaching with their machines. Of course, you're looking at an older machine, out of warranty, but still, your spindle bearings aren't meant to take loads that way.

Liberty_Machine · Apr 6, 2021

DouglasJRizzo said:
your spindle bearings aren't meant to take loads that way.

Nope, they're not. I don't care if I toast the spindle, honestly. Sounds brutal, but there you have it. It's going to be cheaper (by far) than getting a pull-broach machine and having a broach made. I've had quotes in the 50-75k range for the machine and another 10k for the broach.

Mud · Apr 6, 2021

Liberty_Machine said:
Nope, they're not. I don't care if I toast the spindle, honestly. Sounds brutal, but there you have it. It's going to be cheaper (by far) than getting a pull-broach machine and having a broach made. I've had quotes in the 50-75k range for the machine and another 10k for the broach.

How big is this spline? That sounds like you are tooling up for strip mining excavator parts.
New broaching machines are stupid expensive for all the more complexity that is involved. I fixed up a used one, have about 4K involved including shop time. My broaches are under 1.5" dia, cost under $1K.

garyhlucas · Apr 8, 2021

Interesting about using a Fadal VMC15 for this. We just bought one today. Hoping it will be a good machine for our inhouse part making, no production. Machine has 0 spindle hours, has never had a tool in the toolchanger and has no coolant pump or tank. It was used in a medical facility with a laser to engrave part numbers on parts! I guess we’ll see in about another week. It would be nice to broach an occasional keyway with it.

Liberty_Machine · Apr 8, 2021

Ha, I think I was looking at that exact unit on eBay! Grats on the purchase, looks like it will serve you well. I'm several months away from adding another machine, too many irons in the fire

Mud · Apr 8, 2021

This is 50 taper, i wonder if they were ever made in 40 taper?

CNC mill with mechanical spindle orient?

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