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Abrasive Machining 001 question

Tom Womack

Plastic
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Location
Cambridge (UK)
I'm sorry if this is a dumb question; I'm a computer programmer intrigued by manufacture, the biggest bit of equipment I've got my hands dirty with so far is a hand mitre saw, and I have trouble cutting wood to 0.1".

How is it that abrasive machining is so much more accurate than other techniques? I get the impression that milling a surface flat gets you flatness to around 0.001" and surface-grinding it gets 0.0001"; in both cases you're moving the surface around on an X-Y table under a spinning material-removal device.
 
Surface Refinement

It's actually a missconception that grinding is a whole
universe more accurate.

The original quallity, and tollerance, the machine is made to
regulates the out-come of accuracy.
Of corse, offset by the skill and care of the machinst.

Od / Id grinding, might be the exception, since tenths are often split
in this realm of machining. But again the decideing factor is
the much higher refinement of the surface condition produced.

m1m

Case in point:
Two purchased cast-gage-plates.
One done on a brand-new Big OKK vertical.
One done on a brand-new Big Okamoto grinder.
OKK plate was at-least as flat as the ground plate.
Both operators wanted to win so extreme care was taken
by each, so It's a fair showdown.
 
Medic, I don't understand your reply. Are you suggesting you can mill or turn something as accurately as you can grind it? Certainly not the case. Not with any repeatability, sure you can polish something to tenths, but thats not practical in any kind of production.

To answer the original question, grinding is usually done after the workpiece is hardened to achieve much closer tolerences than is possible with anything other than EDM. You can grind on a lathe with a toolpost grinder, but not with the same accuracy or repeatability that you can with a cylindrical grinder. Stiffer spindle, less overhang of table and saddle, probably more surface area between sliding members. Far less cutting pressure from a grinding wheel I would think than an endmill or lathe tool. Good question, can't think of anyting else right off.
 
Both operators wanted to win so extreme care was taken
by each, so It's a fair showdown.

Except from a productivity standpoint. Did the mill guy slow way down to hit the target? Did the grinder have to repeatedly dress the wheel because of all the roughing? Thats why jobs are processed through the two machines the way they usually are. Leave the fine work for the grinder because that's what its made for. Leave the heavy stock removal for the mill for the same reason. Nearly any machine is capable of fine work with the right conditions, but it usually comes at the expense of time. -Mike
 
Flatness

The original poster was asking specifically about flatness, not achieving a size.

It's a big topic, too big to cover here adequately, even by someone who knew their stuff. Scale comes into it a lot. A duckpond is flatter than a concave mirror, but not as smooth. In our terms, the 'finish' is not so fine.

FWIW, I think the balance point between milling and grinding has definitely shifted in my lifetime, when it comes to getting the 'geometry' right on a crucial workpiece.

For a real life example, it certainly seems to me that modern (affordable) NC-style long-bed milling machines can make every bit as good a job of, say, reconditioning a machine tool bed as a (not at all affordable) long-bed grinder -- unless the bedways are extremely hard. This is all about geometry and flatness.

With the right tooling, the cutting forces (for light cuts on cast iron) are minimal, and there is not the problem with workpiece heating which can make grinding tedious.

More surfaces can be reached at one setup, ensuring close holding of relativity tolerances between them, and you can get sizes plenty close enough for a one-off.

RE-reading and hopefully responding to your specific question: why is grinding inherently more accurate, all other things being equal? I guess it comes down to statistical averaging: the grinding wheel consists of thousands of cutting tools, and any which stick out too far get lopped off in short order. The dressing process ( a 'generating' process) produces thousands of fresh new tools with impeccable geometry any time you want.

Because the dressing process is generating a geometry, using (and this is important) the actual movement axes of the actual machine tool, it can correct minor geometrical errors in the machine.
For instance, compare a vertical mill with a vertical axis grinder (eg Blanchard). In the former case, if the vertical spindle is not truly vertical, a face milling cutter will carve hollow scallops out of a horizontal face on the table, whereas the same error in a grinder will be corrected in the dressing process, producing a conical wheel. The action of the wheel on the workpiece, cutting alone one line of contact only, will be to create a substantially flat surface.

Other differences are to do with all other things not being equal: longer guideways are traditionally used on grinders, more rigid structures, more accurate and rigid spindles....

However I do stand by my assertion that improvements in these areas of milling machines, and in tooling, and (highly important) in positional control, removing reliance on feedscrews as the foundation for positional accuracy, have closed the gap significantly since the days when many of the current 'bibles' were written.

On some long bed mills, (although presumably this could also be done with grinders) the workpiece can actually be more accurate than the ways of the machine, by programming corrections into the NC controller so that (say) the head is driven up and down as it moves along, to compensate for deviations from flatness in the guideways.*
This is not as modern as it sounds: techniques like this (although applied mechanically rather than electronically) have always been used to enable machine tools to make the next generation of tool more accurate than they were themselves. If this were not possible, we'd still be stuck with 18th century accuracy.

* A machine in a shop I deal with has this facility, with a bed long enough and a resolution fine enough that the installers supposedly could not rely on the concept of 'level' as a datum, due to the curvature of the earth.
 
As you say Troup, the topic is too big to totally cover here, especially at the newbie level.

Along with the mentioned improvement in conventional machining, has been significant improvement in grinding as well, but the gap certainly has closed a lot.
 
I'm sorry if this is a dumb question; I'm a computer programmer intrigued by manufacture, the biggest bit of equipment I've got my hands dirty with so far is a hand mitre saw, and I have trouble cutting wood to 0.1".

How is it that abrasive machining is so much more accurate than other techniques? I get the impression that milling a surface flat gets you flatness to around 0.001" and surface-grinding it gets 0.0001"; in both cases you're moving the surface around on an X-Y table under a spinning material-removal device.

A comparison might be planing and sanding wood to a finish size, as opposed to cutting with a saw.
 
Why are grinders more accurate than machining centers?

A) Machine design- Grinders do one thing, conventional machines do many.
B) Thousands of cutting tips doing the work as compared to a handful of cutting edges on a conventional machine.

Grinders are terrible machines for roughing.:)
Bob
 
Cut the shut-off all around a two Cavity Injection-Mold

That makes two Filter-bodies for diesel-tractors.
Geometry that can shut-down a 5-year-old PC
just trying to process the solid into "Tool-Path".

Do this on one Name-brand CNC machine-center.
Cut the shut-off on the core in one direction,
reverse the cuts on the cavities.
Once all trapped areas are blended, with their respectively
"smaller & smaller" cutters. One dead-pass (presure-pass) per.

Put it in the fitting-press......
Vwalla! bench out a half here , a thou there.
Done...........
Now tell me a mill is for roughing. Bah.

Common sence and simplicity Rules!
A tool-slide in X & one in Y & one in Z***, Accuracy is in the hands of the Be-doer.

Good-Night.;)

m1m

***FPT Stinger / DinoMax search it, Pop your eyes back in their sockets.
Count the Axis 5 !
And accuracy that will blow your mind.
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu6dkE...dustrie.com/en/macchine-a-portale/dinomax.htm
See video
You can even hand-wheel the 4th & 5th around WHILE CUTTING....
and not disturb the geometry left behind.
 
Call !!

I'm sorry if this is a dumb question; I'm a computer programmer intrigued by manufacture, ..........................
in both cases you're moving the surface around on an X-Y table under a spinning material-removal device.

Let's see your cards now Tom.
I don't buy your ni-eve-ity......;)
Wow I haven't a clue how to spell that.:o

m1m
 
Grinders are terrible machines for roughing.:)
Bob

That all depends Bob. As a general rule you are correct, but there are some cases where a grinder will rough and finish better than any other way. I do some of them.

Check into creep feed grinding applications which can rough and finish at the same time.
 
A comparison might be planing and sanding wood to a finish size, as opposed to cutting with a saw.

Thanks, that refers to experience I have and makes lots of sense ... I remember spending an hour or so trying to sand a piece of wood that I'd cut to 137mm down to being 135mm long, then realizing this was doomed - I hadn't realised there were several kinds of sandpaper, and had bought finishing-sandpaper rather than roughing-sandpaper, it left a beautiful surface but didn't change the geometry perceptibly - and making another part.

I now have a much more visceral understanding of why gauging is important after making a dozen parts of a fairly simple wood thing all of whose dimensions were supposed to be 1x, 3x or 5x the width of the wood, assembling them, and finding a quarter-inch gap at the final joint :bawling:
 
I now have a much more visceral understanding of why gauging is important after making a dozen parts of a fairly simple wood thing all of whose dimensions were supposed to be 1x, 3x or 5x the width of the wood, assembling them, and finding a quarter-inch gap at the final joint :bawling:

LOL..:D. That's funny. We have an equivalent (to various grades of sandpaper) in grinding with various grit wheels.

I remember fitting a door once while bragging to my landlord how precisely I make things, and finding out I cut a piece EXACTLY one inch short. :o
 
Check into creep feed grinding applications which can rough and finish at the same time.
rj,
You won't find a bigger fan of creep feed grinding than me as I design and build CNC creep feed grinders.:)
As you've noted for specialized applications they can combine rough and finish operations and on complex forms where a mill isn't using a lot of HP they are faster.
While a Blanchard can approach the metal removal rate of a conventional machine, mills are still faster for big hogging cuts.
Of course, when applicable, the fastest rougher is a bandsaw.
Bob
 
The 'sawing vs sanding' timber analogy works pretty well at several levels. For instance, the technology of sawing has made major steps in the last thirty or so years and closed the gap to the extent that in certain cases you can control dimensions and finish better with a saw than a sander, if you have the right machine, and the right blade, and haven't used if for the wrong material !
I recently found out that some of the blades on fancy dimension saws used for kitchen joinery in particular cannot be used for 'tree' wood - one cut is sufficient to put them out of contention for their intended use giving planed finishes and exact sizes on (what we down here call) 'customwood' (fine grain medium density fibre board)

Shows how 'optimised' things have become. I always thought the latter was way more abrasive than tree wood. Maybe it's something to do with sap building up gum on the carbide tips, or some such ?
 








 
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