cylindrical grinding versus honing
Close
Login to Your Account
Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    8
    Likes (Received)
    138

    Default cylindrical grinding versus honing

    Assuming the work envelope matches, if one had a high quality cylindrical grinder such as a Studer S20 with both OD and ID setup, is this machine capable of doing most if not everything a honing machine can do?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Country
    CANADA
    State/Province
    British Columbia
    Posts
    2,597
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    2065

    Default

    Hi drcoelho:
    The short answer is "no"

    The reasons are many, but in essence, internal cylindrical grinding will be be a much better fit for some geometries than for others.
    A simple example is a long skinny bore...simple to hone and impossible to cylindrical grind.
    A counter example...a blind short bore; easily ground but very difficult to hone.

    Another fundamental consideration; if you want to correct the location of an undersized bore you may grind it successfully but you cannot move it's location by honing.
    Obversely, if you must preserve the location but only want to increase the diameter it's easy to hone but may be extraordinarily difficult to set up accurately for grinding.

    So although both work in the same tolerance band, they are complementary processes with a zone of overlap.
    A truly complete shop that works in this tolerance range has both.

    Cheers
    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

  3. Likes Hodge, dalmatiangirl61, Colt45, LexD, Paolo_MD and 3 others liked this post
  4. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    8
    Likes (Received)
    138

    Default

    Marcus, very helpful feedback. I'm struggling with running out of space in my shop....curious what you think about the following product: PEMAMO SA | Machines et outils de rodage | Suisse Hand Honing Apparatus. Attractive to me because I could skip the dedicated honing machine and just attach this thing to my lathe or milling machine....what do you think?

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Country
    CANADA
    State/Province
    British Columbia
    Posts
    2,597
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    2065

    Default

    Hi again drcoelho:
    The thing I've always found with attachments over dedicated machines is that as soon as you intend to use it more than occasionally, it becomes a PITA to set up and to tear back down.
    It seems to be always needed just when you have the machine it's going on set up for something else unless you are by nature a good project planner.

    Having a dedicated machine is sooo nice, but only if you have the space for it; even rolling it out from under a bench and plugging it in will make you interrupt your workflow to some extent, but if you don't have the space then it's worth having something rather than nothing, and the unit you link to seems to be of high quality and will serve you well.

    Having said that, I can typically bore within a thou without trying and I can bore within a few tenths with care and attention, so I've typically lapped accurate bores with simple cheap barrel laps rather than honing them, but it's a significantly more painful process than honing and it's a lot slower if you have substantial material to remove or many parts to process especially if you have to get them all the same.
    Of course, now that I have a wire EDM I just wire cut them whenever possible, but that's beside the point here.

    I think it's a nice unit...if you can spend the money and want to hone bores it'll serve you well; it just won't be as convenient as a Sunnen all set up and ready to go.
    Plan for a good sized mess when you use it, and try to make some kind of convenient splash guarding you can install and tear down easily.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

  6. Likes cameraman liked this post
  7. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Country
    UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    2,524
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1192

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    Assuming the work envelope matches, if one had a high quality cylindrical grinder such as a Studer S20 with both OD and ID setup, is this machine capable of doing most if not everything a honing machine can do?
    I love ID grinders. Not combo machines, dedicated internal grinders. You can put the hole exactly where you want it, size control is more positive, interruptions like keyways and splines are no problem, surface finish is more controllable, they are very hand-friendly to run, it's just really nice.

    But if none of that matters for your parts, then it's not a good deal

  8. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,227
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3308
    Likes (Received)
    1737

    Default

    A lot depends on what you are going to be grinding. I did a lot of grinding and honing of cold former dies before I retired. For most ID grinding I used a Bryant ID grinder that probably weighed in at around 5,000 pounds, maybe more. High speed spindle and I could grind a carbide ID of .380" dia. to within +- .0002 and leave a mirror finish after polishing. Also grind the radius at the bottom of the 3 inch deep hole. Pretty specialized grinding.

    We also had a Parker Majestic ID grinder that I used for normal ID grinding. And a whole die room of grinders of various types.

    I also had a Sunnen hone and that was pretty handy for cleaning up galled dies and prepping them for polishing. For most shops I think a combo ID/OD grinder would be OK. The ones that we had didn't have coolant so for things like die pins they probably wouldn't be very good even with a cold air gun.

  9. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    8
    Likes (Received)
    138

    Default

    The Studer S20 I'm considering will have coolant as well as automatic grind cycles, roundness claim for grinding operations (with live spindle) of 0.000012" (and optionally 0.000008"). Given my space contraints thinking maybe going with cylindrical grinder and using a combination of manual lapping and/or honing adapter attached to mill or lathe.

  10. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Country
    UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    2,524
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1192

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    The Studer S20 I'm considering will have coolant as well as automatic grind cycles, roundness claim for grinding operations (with live spindle) of 0.000012" (and optionally 0.000008").
    Sorry, but that's silly. A high-production grinder is not sensible for short-run or onesy-twosey use. It's just dumb.

    Get a decent Landis 1R and save about fifty thousand dollars.

    btw, those numbers are meaningless for you. You're never going to be doing work that requires that, and if you did you won't have tools to measure it.

    People get way too carried away on specs.

  11. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    8
    Likes (Received)
    138

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Sorry, but that's silly. A high-production grinder is not sensible for short-run or onesy-twosey use. It's just dumb.

    Get a decent Landis 1R and save about fifty thousand dollars.

    btw, those numbers are meaningless for you. You're never going to be doing work that requires that, and if you did you won't have tools to measure it.

    People get way too carried away on specs.
    Hey, I'm just the messenger here....it just seemed to me that with that kind of accurancy, who needs honing....your feedback as usual is greatly valued

  12. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Michigan USA
    Posts
    1,126
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    84
    Likes (Received)
    236

    Default

    "That kind of accuracy" is only achieved when conditions are perfect. If you have a long diameter to length ratio that changes quickly. Your decision depends on how many parts are being processed. To set up honing or lapping take a very short amount of time and is slower stock removal therefore less scrap on 2-3 part runs.

    Studer grinders are the best but ID grinding is tough to master. Say you have a .375 bore x 4 inches. Very difficult to grind. Very easy to hone and hold .0002" dimension. Very very easy to lap and hold .00005 dimension. When you crash a hone or lap the loss is $20-$200. Crash the grinder and WOW.

    Many things to think about. Tolerance is not always king.

  13. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    10,183
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3456
    Likes (Received)
    3638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    The Studer S20 I'm considering will have coolant as well as automatic grind cycles, roundness claim for grinding operations (with live spindle) of 0.000012" (and optionally 0.000008"). Given my space contraints thinking maybe going with cylindrical grinder and using a combination of manual lapping and/or honing adapter attached to mill or lathe.
    Q:, [ is this machine capable of doing most if not everything a honing machine can do?] No.

    Each has its place. One problem with grinding is that you must position the part for straight and wobble (radially and axially) and honing can often pick up the straight and wobble with little/less fixturing. With fixturing, grinding can correct straight and wobble when honing can not.

    Both can do very good size.

  14. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    4,823
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3267
    Likes (Received)
    3681

    Default

    Two things I see the hone doing better is a high depth/dia ration (trying grinding 10" 3/4" dia bore) and because it floats if you can lift it you can get a good result. Pick up a a tailstock is and honing bore is quiet doable - it'd be a lot harder to mount that on a revolving workhead for grinding.

  15. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    8
    Likes (Received)
    138

    Default

    It occurred to me that I have a little 9" southbend lathe sitting around, maybe I could use that for occasional lapping and honing, takes up less space than a full honing machine....dealing with honing oil would be a pain though....maybe just lapping....

  16. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    10,183
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3456
    Likes (Received)
    3638

    Default

    I have seen better quality drill presses with a tramed table and a decent V block used for some honing.
    I have used Sunnen hones but with not having a ton of quills and stones thay are much good.
    SUNNEN Hone - 303201 For Sale Used N/A

  17. #15
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    229
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    8
    Likes (Received)
    24

    Default

    The hone will be better than the grinder in holes where the length is 5 times or more the diameter. Hones are better suited for short runs. Initial cost will be lower with the hone.
    Last edited by gappmast; 12-08-2019 at 05:07 AM.

  18. #16
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canandaigua, NY, USA
    Posts
    2,887
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    141
    Likes (Received)
    1290

    Default

    Hone is great and you can sometimes stack thin parts and do them all at once to get around the PITA of thin parts. You should have no trouble at all honing L/D ratios of 2:1 or more. At their very best, both hone and grinder can probably do equal tolerances, but I bet I can hit 20 millionths on the hone more easily then you'll do it on the grinder, assuming you can measure it.

  19. Likes tdmidget liked this post

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •