Decoding Tyrolit wheels

Hi all.

I'm a newbie to the surface grinding world and could use your advice. I've already picked up a pile of tips from reading the forums, good stuff!
I have a 2010 Kent Surface Grinder with coolant tank. Automatic 2 Axis with a set spindle speed of 3400 RPM I believe.

I'm grinding 60 Rockwell (M2 tool steel +or-) and am using Tyrolit wheels.
I've ordered some more arbors and want to play around a bit with different stones to make the grinding faster and with better finish. Don't want much do I.


Currently I'm using a ceramic wheel to rough grind with. Tyrolit # 454A461J11v3. I go through all the parts and then come back with a none Ceramic wheel Tyrolit # 89A46J7AV217. This wheel is extremely unforgiving compared to the ceramic wheel but gives a better finish.

I'm having a heck of a time decoding the wheels and can't seem to find anything on line (probably just looking in the wrong place).
The Tyrolit site does tell you in a PDF See here http://www.tyrolit.com/dataarchive/data56/16_pk2008_gb.pdf what stone to use for certain materials but doesn't brake the numbers down.
Is my ceramic wheel a 45 grit and the none ceramic a 89 grit????

Hope I'm not making an ass of myself asking a dumb question.....

The first 2 characters are the manufacturers code for their propietary abrasive mix. The 3 rd is the abrasive material , A for aluminum oxide, C for silicon carbide,etc. The 4th and 5th characters are the abrasive grit size. The next, a letter is the bond hardness. The next, a number is the structure and represents a relative measure of open space in the wheel. The next letter is the type of bond, in this case both are V, vitrified bond. The rest is , again a manufactuers code.

If your material is 60 Rc the both your wheels are too hard. They are J and you would be better off with H or I. This probably why you are having trouble with finish. You should be able to grind start to finish with one wheel. I would try the 45A in an H hardness.

Thank you for this!

How efficient would a 45A -H be? How much would I be able to take off per pass. Right now I'm .001 to .002 max. with the ceramic stone.
Worst case scenario I'm having to grind tools down .020-.040. These tools are in very bad shape and I'm trying to get my customers to realize the sharpening more often and taking less material is the way to go.

I don't have that much experience with the ceramic or SG type wheels but another poster here, Cash, does I'm sure. I would think that with on open structure wheel and flood coolant you should be able to cut .004-.005 deep and crossfeed will depend on wheel width and horsepower. With material in this hardness range you will want to be careful of excess heat. If you see brown marks it is burning. Even a slight yellowish tint will turn darker in a day or so. Avoid this as it hurts the heat treatment and can develop cracks. To a certain extent you will have to experiment, very cautiously if these are customer parts.

Thanks again. Yes this is all customer tooling I'm sharpening so do have to be careful. I do have some old large junk dies I can experiment with so all is good.

Another quick question. What is more important, the grit or the hardness.
I just made a call to make an order for a new stone to try. They had 45 I or 46 H. Should I go with the 46 H?

I think you are confusing some positions in the wheel code. It appears that "45" is a proprietary code, the first 2 places in the code. I don't think anyone is screening grit that finely. Grits sizes are usually 24, 46, 60, 100, 150, and finer. If these are ironworker punch dies the the 46 grit should be fine if it is cutting cleanly and lasting. The finer grits will slow down production as they produce more heat and remove less material. Therefore you are lokking for a compromise, as always in grinding. That is the tradeoff between the perfect finish and economic practicality. Finish here means little here, your customer wants his die back quick, cheap and ready to cut. There fore I would stick with the 46 grit, it's working. You might try a larger grit, ( smaller number= larger grit) and see if it works for you and the customer . If so you can do the job cheaper or at a greater profit margin. The money here is in quick turnaround. Heat is your enemy, rapid removal is your friend.
The ceramic wheel will probably be your best bet if it allows a rapid roughing followed by a light finish cut. Talk to your wheel dealer and also the manufacturer. They may be willing to supply samples to get/keep your business. They should be willing to keep the wheel that makes money for you in stock. They should understand that you are running a machine shop, not a warehouse. If a dealer/manufacturer isn't willing to work with you, others are. Don't be afraid to shop around.

I might have mistaken what he said he had. I'll go with the 46H and see what happens.
The tooling I'm sharpening are Wilson, Mate and Amada tooling "Turret tooling". So far my customers are happy with my service, price and finish but always looking to do better. I'm considering going into the Iron Worker tooling, there are a lot of Iron workers out there.

If there are enough of them to make a decent buck then you have found a 'niche". Develop your methods and you are in the catbird seat. 'Course I don't if that means anything in Alberta but I'm sure you get the Idea.
Time is money so the faster you can turn then around, the better for you and the customer. If they punch and hold up the finish is secondary.

Unless it is a stock Tyrolite wheel I would not bother. Their delivery is out to 14 weeks right now.

The rep was in my shop today and I had a field day with him.

I have found a niche for sure. I've been servicing equipment for 10 years and have many customers. I went independent 2 years ago and added a tool grinding service with I twist. I'm mobile, I go to them. Customers LOVE it. Tooling is done on the spot and they don't have to wait a week to get their tools back. For customers that do not have a huge tool library I go in on a Friday evening and strip all the tools out of a turret, grind them on the weekend and have the tooling back Monday AM. It's all about the convenience and the service.
I've been grinding for about 10 months and slowly getting things dialed in. I went surface grinder rather than a post grinder for the flexibility. I've done corner notcher blades as well as some die sets so far.
I have a small Mill/Lathe combo unit on board as well and make my own jigs. That little unit has paid for it's self already.

The other reason I'm looking for different stones is I have to order the Tyrolit stones through my competitor. He is the local distributor. And yes I have to wait 2-3 weeks for an order so I have to be sure to carry my own stock.

I found a stone at TraversCanada.com. The stone will be shipped ground out of Ontario, will be here in 5 days (I could have aired it if I really needed to).

Thanks again for all your help so far. I hope one day to be experienced enough to be able to add to the forums and help others. But for now I'm going to be a sponge and soak everything up.

No problem, I'm flattered that I might have been some help. If you are buying through your competitor that is a bad situation. Call Norton In Worcester Ma and ask their recommendations and for a dealer near you or some one who can ship next day. They have some serious experts available in my experience and they have the products to do the job. I have dealt with them and found that their advice and experience was priceless. They are worldwide and should be able to eliminate your competitor.
you might also try Coastal or Radiac. These are reputable companies, they can cross reference to other's products and they want your business.

Fantastic! Thanks again.

89A46J7AV217

89A - Abrasive Type
46 - Grit Size

J - Grade (Hardness)
7 - Structure
AV217 - Bond

The 89A you described is a White Aluminum Oxide.

I cannot find the Ceramic spec that you speak of. Typically, Tyrolit calls their Ceramic "97A".

I hope this helps you. Please feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.

Thank you,
The Grind Zone