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    Bruce, A " three penny bit " was a small coin that used to be in circulation in the U.K. when I was a child. It had a multi facited edge. So if you had a bad finish on the diameter, people would say " That's like a three penny bit". If you had a bad finish on the face of a job they would say " That's a finish like an L.P ".

    You aren't that young that you don't know what an L.P. is ? I worked in a school for a while recently and when I said that to a lad that had done some really rough turning he said " What's an L.P.? "

    Regards Tyrone.

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    OK, my finish is improving (not yet mirror, but getting closer).

    - I changed the spindle oil for the recommended Mobil Velocite No 3.

    - I dressed the stone VERY slowly, wet

    - I moved the coolant nozzle right into the "crease" between work and wheel, as close as I could get it (1mm) without contact.

    I have not yet measured the spindle axial play, or gotten the machine off the pallet, but I will do these soon.

    Here's a couple photos of the tailstock-mounted diamond. It says 0.46C





    I am making a test bar to help me align the machine and get the tailstock right. The test bar will have a short MT5 taper, then 30mm diameter (1 1/4") for 400mm (16"). Before I rough turn this on the lathe, I played around with making the starting length of steel into a cylinder. This piece is 45mm in diameter (1 3/4") and 500mm (20") long.



    I got this equal at both ends to within 2 microns (0.00007") but when I measured the diameter along its length, it grows in diameter up to the middle, where it is about 0.0004" too large in diameter, then it shrinks again going back to the other end. Is this because I need some kind a center support to push against it lightly?


    I like running this machine, here's a short action video



    PS: the machine is an "RHU-450" which I think means "work up to 450mm long". But this bar is 500mm long, and the total travel on the bed is 550mm. Perhaps they are allowing for a 50mm wide wheel going off the work on both sides....
    Last edited by ballen; 02-26-2018 at 04:03 AM.

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    Hi Bruce, there's something very satisfying about running a cylindrical grinding machine, especially on longish work. It's quite hypnotic, a bit like planing can be. You will obviously get better results on a bigger,stiffer bar like the one you are grinding at the moment. You need a finger rest in the middle to prevent the push off that is allowing the bar to become barrel shaped. Another trick is to dress the front face of the wheel down by half when you're finishing the job to reduce the wheel contact area and therefore reduce the pressure on the bar.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Hi Tyrone,

    Yes, it's as much fun as the lathe. And I am starting to get more comfortable with the controls, so I am less fearful of doing something stupid and blowing up the wheel in my face. The lever that "pushes back" the wheel head a couple of inches is really useful to clear space for checking the work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    You need a finger rest in the middle to prevent the push off that is allowing the bar to become barrel shaped.
    OK. Do you adjust the pressure of the fingers "by experience" and then tune that to get rid of the barrel? Too much pressure and it's skinny in the middle?

    Another trick is to dress the front face of the wheel down by half when you're finishing the job to reduce the wheel contact area and therefore reduce the pressure on the bar.
    OK. Would it also work to make more spark-out passes? I ground going towards the workhead and the return pass did not have any sparks, so that's where I stopped. Would more passes to spark out improve the belly or eliminate it? Or is the 10 microns/0.0004" going to remain, no matter how much I spark out, if I don't add a finger rest?

    Last question, I need a better tool for comparing diameters at various points along the bar. Is there something like a lightweight comparator stand which I can fit with a millimess or other 1 micron indicator, and then just lift up to the work? Right now I am using a micrometer to compare diameters, and I need something better.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Hi Bruce, you can put your DTI up against the bar as you adjust the finger rest pressure but being honest as you gain experience you will be able to gauge how much pressure to apply. Did your machine come with any rests ? It would have been equipped with several when new.

    A few spark out passes should be enough really. In industry they don't spend too much time sparking out.

    I'm not equipped to answer the last question, most places I worked at found micrometers were plenty good enough to get down to a quarter of a thou. On big stuff that was near enough. I haven't had much experience in the really fine grinding world. I remember one machine I worked on a repair having a sort of swing down dial type device mounted on the wheel head that the operator used for gauging finished sizes. Maybe you should post in the " Metrology " section.

    Regards Tyrone

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    PS: how much do you typically dress the wheel? I've been grinding stuff that has oxide/rust on the surface, and it makes a mess of the wheel so then I need to dress off a tenth of a mm or so to clean it up. Perhaps I should clean off the work with sandpaper first! In this size the AO wheels cost about 50 Euros each so I figure it doesn't need to last forever. What do you do?

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    Depends on the work and the wheel. That white wheel you're running will be pretty soft going off the white wheels I've used in the past. Most of my experience with grinding machines is in the bigger range. Large ( 10 ft plus between centres ) style machines. Normally the items to be ground weren't particularly rusty but the ones that were rusty we cleaned them with a fine pad angle grinder.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Last question, I need a better tool for comparing diameters at various points along the bar. Is there something like a lightweight comparator stand which I can fit with a millimess or other 1 micron indicator, and then just lift up to the work? Right now I am using a micrometer to compare diameters, and I need something better.
    I suppose an indicating micrometer (Feinzeiger-Rachenlehre) would fit your description.

    Here's one: MaraMeter

    They are much cheaper used:

    Dial indicating micrometer

    Feinzeiger-Rachenlehre

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    OK, my finish is improving (not yet mirror, but getting closer).

    - I changed the spindle oil for the recommended Mobil Velocite No 3.

    - I dressed the stone VERY slowly, wet

    - I moved the coolant nozzle right into the "crease" between work and wheel, as close as I could get it (1mm) without contact.
    If you did all that before testrunning you let pass a opportunity to learn something
    If you do it one by one you notice which is the most relevant

    Was the old spindle oil the correct one ??

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by nitromarsjipan View Post
    I suppose an indicating micrometer (Feinzeiger-Rachenlehre) would fit your description.

    Here's one: MaraMeter

    They are much cheaper used:

    Dial indicating micrometer

    Feinzeiger-Rachenlehre
    Somebody gave me one of those dial indicating micrometers. It's a 0"-1" made by " Carl Zeiss ". I can't say I use it much, it's really an inspectors tool, but It's a very nice, accurate micrometer albeit a bit clumsy to use. Really it needs to go in a stand so you have both hands free.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Last question, I need a better tool for comparing diameters at various points along the bar. Is there something like a lightweight comparator stand which I can fit with a millimess or other 1 micron indicator, and then just lift up to the work? Right now I am using a micrometer to compare diameters, and I need something better.
    There's in-process gaging, with a leg that swings out from the wheelhead and three-point contact on the part as you grind it. The top point of the three is the plunger of an indicator. I am trying to remember the name of the most famous brand and failing Usually those will be tenths indicators.

    I have seen them used more for plunge grinding than traverse grinding.

    About your reverse-barrel shape, the part does sound real small but you've messed with the tarry settings, I guess ? That will affect the diameters on the ends also. You are only in-feeding on the headstock end and not both ends ?

    Your parts are so small this may not be applicable but with larger work, the wheel is not actually straight across the face. It will wear to a taper, with the tailstock end being slightly smaller. So for especially accurate work you want to grind up to maybe a thou away, then dress, then do a pass and measure, then your finish pass or two. You won't be needing so much sparkout that way, since the wheel will be freshly sharp and straight for the last pass or two.

    You can screw yourself on the first part of a batch, as you take the taper out if your wheel gets too dull and you over-compensate. Then you have nothing to work with at the end ... so on the first piece, leave yourself a little extra stock for finish and re-un-tapering if necessary.

    Sometimes too sharp of a wheel gives you a visually less-impressive finish. The part can be cleaner and rounder but not look as shiny. Like turning, a little bit dull wheel can burnish the part and make it look flashier, but it's not really as clean of a cut.

    Don't go crazy thinking "Oh my grinder is no good !" because you have taper. They ALL have taper. That's why you use the first piece to get rid of it, by adjusting the tailstock or the table itself. It's normal. Maybe a brand new gazillion dollar grinder will have less but it'll still be there and still need to be corrected. So .003 or .030, what difference does it make ? Still have to adjust for it.

    I'm not that big a fan of those in-process gages because they are kind of a pain in the neck to use and they leave shiny marks. But if you are more into making parts to sell and less to gaze on, they are probably wonderful

    For your size wheel ? I'd put some effort into finding one of the new super-abrasives. You shouldn't really be getting that inverse-barrely, if you are grinding instead of pushing metal. I am guessing you aren't in there knocking off .010" per pass so the metal should not be pushing away so much. A .0002"/side finish pass shouldn't be pushing the part very much at all. But if you aren't getting coolant into the slot, then the part will heat and bow, which may be the cause of what you are seeing. And with a small part, it takes less heat. With a dinky little part and a wide wheel, you can develop a lot of heat quickly. You might try a skinnier wheel for those parts. When you put your hand on the part it should be ice cold.

    Coolants for grinding are not fun and not pretty I used pink Cimcool, it was okay but hopefully there are better coolants now. You can take the nozzle and push it right up against the wheel, who cares if you grind some off the back side And that will help block the wind that follows the wheel around.

    The grains in Cubitron II and its competitors are sharper than conventional wheels, which might help you. Worth trying. On another job I know of, the Cubitron wheels gave better accuracy and took half the time. And that was all carefully measured, not just some magazine hoohaw.

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    Something that has always bothered me is that the oil tell-tale for the spindle didn't really show that much was happening. But I could tell that oil was flowing so did not worry about it.

    Anyway, I decided today to take a look and found the culprit: a (probably 50 year old) piece of felt in the filtering chain. It's black with age and probably no longer very porous. 18mm (3/4") diameter and about 1.5mm (1/16") thick.





    Can anyone suggest what I should use as a replacement for this? The felt is captured between two filter screens, which is why I had missed it on the first run through the machine.

    Alternatively: I could clean the felt with acetone or alcohol or brake cleaner or ???

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    Peter: Yes, I changed more than one variable at a time. I know that I shouldn't do this but I didn't have so much time and was excited to get back to grinding. The old oil is definitely thicker than the new stuff, but it's still quite thin.

    Nitro: I'll try to borrow one of those to see if it works as I would like. It looks like the right thing. But I would prefer something where I can easily use different dial indicators inside it.

    Tyrone: If they are meant for stand use then that's not going to work well.

    SeaMoss: I suppose in-process gauging is when you are making hundreds of more of the same thing. I only do ones and fews of parts. The shape is barrel not reverse barrel. I was using about a 2 second dwell at the ends. On the tailstock side the wheel went completely off the part. On the headstock end the wheel went about halfway off the part. Both ends had the same diameter, so I don't think it's the tarry.

    It seems like a good idea to redress for the final few microns of trimming.

    Yes, I had to adjust out the taper by rotating the table. That's why I built a good holder for my 1 micron Tesa indicator, as shown above.

    The part is not so "dinky". 45mm diameter x 500mm, it weighs about 5kg = 11 lbs.

    Regarding the cubitron wheel: could you please recommend a specific one, in 12" diameter x 1" wide x 5" center hole?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Peter: Yes, I changed more than one variable at a time. I know that I shouldn't do this but I didn't have so much time and was excited to get back to grinding. The old oil is definitely thicker than the new stuff, but it's still quite thin.

    Nitro: I'll try to borrow one of those to see if it works as I would like. It looks like the right thing. But I would prefer something where I can easily use different dial indicators inside it.

    Tyrone: If they are meant for stand use then that's not going to work well.

    SeaMoss: I suppose in-process gauging is when you are making hundreds of more of the same thing. I only do ones and fews of parts. The shape is barrel not reverse barrel. I was using about a 2 second dwell at the ends. On the tailstock side the wheel went completely off the part. On the headstock end the wheel went about halfway off the part. Both ends had the same diameter, so I don't think it's the tarry.

    It seems like a good idea to redress for the final few microns of trimming.

    Yes, I had to adjust out the taper by rotating the table. That's why I built a good holder for my 1 micron Tesa indicator, as shown above.

    The part is not so "dinky". 45mm diameter x 500mm, it weighs about 5kg = 11 lbs.

    Regarding the cubitron wheel: could you please recommend a specific one, in 12" diameter x 1" wide x 5" center hole?
    As I said the micro was designed more for use by an inspector than machine use.

    You need to keep your eye open for a hardback book " Jones & Shipman " produced in the old days. It was called something like " The Book Of The Cylindrical Grinder ", it told you everything you needed to know about running a small cylindrical grinder. Speeds, feeds, work head speeds, wheels, grinding techniques - the whole nine yards.

    I got a copy years ago, they were free from " J & S " then, but I made the mistake of lending it out.

    I always understood that you should only let the wheel pass off the work by 1/3rd of the wheel width at either end.


    Edit- I've just been on the " Tony's Lathes " site. I think the book I was referring to was called " Grinding - Precision Grinding Techniques ".
    Tony has the book or a copy of it and he wants £45 for it. If it's the same book I'm thinking of it's well worth it.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Hi Peter,

    OK, I measured the axial play of the spindle. This now has the correct oil in it (Mobil Velocite No 3).

    Procedure: I removed the drive belt. Pulley is still a bit stiff to turn. Put on indicator, tried to push and pull spindle axially. No movement. Then tried "wiggle rotating" the spindle back and forth as I pushed and pulled. That worked very well: I could push and pull the spindle repeatably back and forth. I measured a total axial play of 100 microns (0.1mm, 0.004").

    The manual says, "when the bearing is correctly adjusted, the bearing play amounts to 5 microns (0.0002"). Later, in the procedure to adjust this, one can see that this corresponds to an axial play of 50 microns (0.002") so the taper in the solid bearing must be 1:10.

    So... the bearing axial play is twice as big as it should be, meaning that the radial play is 10 microns (0.0004") instead of 5 microns (0.0002"). So I need to open up the spindle and adjust the internal nuts which set this play. That's next weekend's project.

    (PS: see my other thread in this forum for some photos of the internals of the spindle bearing and pump.)

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 02-27-2018 at 03:31 PM.

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    Your photos just showed up here ... no idea why it works that way but I swear all of China's overseas traffic is routed through a single Trash-80

    Anyway, you are right, I miswrote about barrel shaped. I did mean fat in the middle. And I was going off your earlier description on part size.

    But one thing - TURN UP THE COOLANT !! That's nowhere NEAR enough coolant ! It should be like the bathtub faucet on full, a compete gushing river flowing over the grind interface. You should feel like you're at the helm of a 25' sailboat in a stiff breeze.

    With that tiny-ass amount of coolant, good chance that you are heating up the part and getting a bow. You shouldn't need a steady rest on that.

    And what is your operational procedure ? you should feed in at the headstock end, traverse to the tailstock end, tarry, feed back. Then infeed again, traverse, tarry, back. Run the wheel off the edge at the tailstock end by a little, maybe a quarter to a third of the wheel width. Looks like you are feeding in in the middle ? Never seen anyone do that

    If you are trying to grind from end to end, driving the part can be a pain. They make end-drivers for that. Most shaft work doesn't go across the entire part (luckily). Sometimes, in desperation, you have to grind the section under the driver separately and blend. It's icky but life isn't perfect

    Your finish doesn't look that bad, considering. It will improve as you get your experience level up. But that wheel is not going to stay forever .... anyway, basics first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    TURN UP THE COOLANT !! That's nowhere NEAR enough coolant!
    I have seen 15 HP fully-enclosed CNC grinding centers where there is so much coolant flying around that you can't see what's happening inside. But I can't reproduce that in my shop because there is no enclosure and the shielding is not very good. Certainly the part is not getting warm to the touch anywhere. Only the point of wheel contact must be hot because there are sparks.

    And what is your operational procedure ?
    I was infeeding at the footstock only so that when cutting the pressure was on the workspindle. The tailstock is spring loaded to take up any length change

    You should feed in at the headstock end
    I thought not, since the tailstock is spring loaded.

    Run the wheel off the edge at the tailstock end by a little, maybe a quarter to a third of the wheel width
    The Studer manual says "feed off the part by at least half of the wheel width".

    Looks like you are feeding in the middle
    When I first started to cut the bar, I was traversing towards the headstock and slowly feeding in by hand to make initial contact.

    Your finish doesn't look that bad, considering.
    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    I have seen 15 HP fully-enclosed CNC grinding centers where there is so much coolant flying around that you can't see what's happening inside. But I can't reproduce that in my shop because there is no enclosure and the shielding is not very good. Certainly the part is not getting warm to the touch anywhere. Only the point of wheel contact must be hot because there are sparks.
    You can't reproducee the nc grinder mess, but manual grinding you still need a lot more coolant than you are showing. A lot. And localized heating will cause the part to expand and warp. You can even burn the surface without visible evidence, but nital etch will show it.

    Seriously, grinding needs flood coolant, not a trickle. There should be some youtube videos showing this ?

    I was infeeding at the footstock only so that when cutting the pressure was on the workspindle. The tailstock is spring loaded to take up any length change
    As far as I know they are all spring-loaded. Maybe Michiganbuck could tell you the why but every manual I have ever read and every guy I've ever seen plunges at the left end, traverses, returns, then plunges again.

    The Studer manual says "feed off the part by at least half of the wheel width".
    They are trying to counteract the uneven wheel wear. Which is okay, if you like that it will work just as well. I just stick with what I was taught because the guy I learned from was a genius. Poured him out of a box a few years ago so probably not going to change.

    When I first started to cut the bar, I was traversing towards the headstock and slowly feeding in by hand to make initial contact.
    Don't know Studer but Landis does a rapid infeed, then a slow infeed to a stop. Everybody develops their own personal style but on a fresh part I'd back the handwheel out the amount of grind stock plus a tad, bring the wheel in with the infeed lever, plunge by hand with the handwheel to my first diameter, traverse to the end and back, plunge, repeat repeat until about a thou or so away. With a 20" wheel you don't need to dress as often as with a smaller wheel, so whether I dressed or not at this point depended on the job. But if you need to be picky, now's the time. Then take a light pass, measure, and see where you need to go. I wouldn't be ashamed to take a pass or two at .0001"/side on finish. If you like, a final pass with no infeed.

    I see you are looking for a hotdog indicating way to measure the part. Etalon indicating micrometer. They are expensive, but (barely) within range for an individual. Used ones exist as well.

    I finally remembered the name of the in-process grinding gage. It also sounds like what you are looking for and maybe more useful - Arnold gage. I don't think they are that expensive. But I don't think that's your biggest problem at this point ... MORE COOLANT !!

    http://www.arnoldgauge.com/catalog/2011_LR_English.pdf

    And I don't have a good reason to say your method is not good, but nobody does it that way. Landis doesn't say to do that, Cincinnati does not. The Grinding Wheel does not, the Norton pamphlets did not, I dunno. Buck might be able to explain the why's and wherefores but I would not choose the way you are doing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Seriously, grinding needs flood coolant, not a trickle. There should be some youtube videos showing this ?
    I found this video. Look at 04=3:45 and you'll see it's not different than me, apart from having a better shaped nozzle.

    .

    I finally remembered the name of the in-process grinding gage. It also sounds like what you are looking for and maybe more useful - Arnold gage. I don't think they are that expensive. http://www.arnoldgauge.com/catalog/2011_LR_English.pdf
    That looks even better than what I had imagined! They cost a few hundred dollars on Ebay. Hmmm, perhaps I can make one that will hold a dial indicator on the top.

    I don't have a good reason to say your method is not good, but nobody does it that way. Landis doesn't say to do that, Cincinnati does not. The Grinding Wheel does not, the Norton pamphlets did not, I dunno. Buck might be able to explain the why's and wherefores but I would not choose the way you are doing.
    Noted. I'll check in Machine Shop Practice, by Moltrecht, and see what it says.

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    You infeed at a shoulder and grind away from the shoulder. Otherwise you develop a taper in the wheel leaving the shaft large next to the shoulder. I think all the anglehead grinders I have seen have the shaft on the right side of the shoulder so infeeding on the left and grinding right just became the standard.

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