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J&S 540 Plain Bearing Spindle

small.planes

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 5, 2008
Location
Leics UK
Evening All,
About 12 years ago I bought a 540.
This past couple of weeks I've finally got round to getting it running - no point rushing these things ;)
It has the plain bearing spindle. Does anyone have the instructions that covers the end float spec, and more importantly how to adjust it?
I think there is too much clearance on mine, but I'm not certain what it should be.

Dave
 
According to the factory manual, max clearance is 0.0004" or 0.01 mm on the plain bearing heads. There should be a thrust ring at the back of the head, secured by three lock screws, the thrust rings can be adjusted and the lock screws tightened.
 
Good to warm up a plane bearing spindle Psrhapsd 15 minuerts.
If it had a little extra but grinds well I would wonder about messing with ir.
Goodvto give a plane bearibg a hand spin and then jog start.
Oil runs off the top of the bearing surface.
 
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According to the factory manual, max clearance is 0.0004" or 0.01 mm on the plain bearing heads. There should be a thrust ring at the back of the head, secured by three lock screws, the thrust rings can be adjusted and the lock screws tightened.

Is that behind the belt pulley? Do I need to remove the belt pully to access the lock ring?

Dave
 
Good to wasr up a plane bearing spindle Psrhapsd 15 minuerts.
If it had a little extra but grinds well I would wonder about messing with ir.
Goodvto give a plane bearibg a hand spin and then jog start.
Oil runs off the top of the bearing surface.

It grinds, but there is a 'ripple' for want of a better description visible in the finish. I haven't measured it (the surface table is currently inaccessible due to stuff moved to get the grinder running.
This is 1/10000 cut, taken 2x - once 'cutting' and once 'spark out' (I think that's the correct description)
Its Gage Plate (O1) that has been hardened. Wheel is a white alox, its mounted, so I cant see the markings, but I think it was a 38 A 46H.
Cut was taken with the auto feed running quite slow, and the auto cross at ~25 thou. cross feed occurs on both directions.

A6403-B26-8-FB3-4-B51-87-CF-DFF2-DAFD3-CAA.jpg

I had to dress it with a SiC stone, as my diamond hasn't got here yet.

I think the ripple might be related to the looseness in the spindle, but this is my first ever grind, so it could also be something else.

Dave
 
Is that behind the belt pulley? Do I need to remove the belt pully to access the lock ring?

Dave

You don't need to remove the pulley as you can access the locking screws through a hole in the pulley. But the pulley is not difficult to remove at all so might be the easiest way.
 
Qt op [I had to dress it with a SiC stone, as my diamond hasn't got here yet.} this is not for SGs

Do dress the wheel before messing with the spindle...fresh wheel prefered..
Use two indicators one on the spindle shaft and one on the outer structure to be sure what is moving.
Be sure the old wheel is not coolant or just dirty logged from setting half exposed for many years,
Check to see that no belt pulleys have a slug of dirt from setting so long.
Tell what is the radial and axial free travel of a warm spindle.

In a dire pinch one can dress a wheel with the edge of a carbide shank or tool bit with small down feeds and a cross. but very best to wait for the sharp facet edge of a diamond.. *just a short bar of CRS and a 3/8 (drill press) drill hole, and a set screw makes an Ok dresser..yes drill the hole at 15*

I had a customer who thought a new looking surface grinder he bought at auction had a bad spindle...I took it's wheel off and mounted a wheel I had brought and the spindle ran like new.
 
The spindle doesn't get warm to the touch, even after an hours running.
I think the end play is 2-3 thou, its a bit 'squishy' - I think that must be the oil film moving. Hard to get a repeatable measurement.
There is no runout on the spindle taper when running, but it does 'climb' into position as it starts to speed up, then holds steady.
I think that would be consistent with the bearing starting to run up on the oil film, but I wouldn't have expected it to be very much movement.
The needle vibrates slightly (tenths indicator), but that might be general vibration pickup? Its way less than 1/2 a division.
I cant remember how much it moved up by before steadying, but I think more than 5 tenths - can get some measurements later.
I'll find the adjustments, but was going to try a new wheel and dress before messing. At least I know where to look and what it should measure now.
The machine was apparently in use before I got it, and was moved on because of an electrical issue - which I have fixed.


Dave
 
The plain bearing spindled 540's are supposed to give a better grind and finish than the later rolling element bearing heads. But i would imagine could be more troublesome to repair if something goes wrong with them. Doesn't matter to me as i will only be messing around in a shed with mine.
 
I have been going through figuring out how to get a good finish also. I can tell you, there are many things to check before you go monkeying with your spindle.

Is your wheel bore larger than the spindle of your wheel adapter?
Is your wheel adapter mounted solidly to the spindle?
Is the wheel adapter nut tight enough, or is your wheel a bit loose?
Is your wheel/adapter assembly perfectly balanced?
Is your wheel dressing methodology correct? (are you getting the wheel fully true?)
Is your table lubricated correctly?

Failing any one of the above can lead to severely worse finishes.
And I'm sure there are more factors as well.

metalmagpie
 
Indeed many things to look at, but a spindle which has a lot more endfloat than the spec should be considered for a candidate.
Today my diamond came, so I knocked up a holder,at 15 degrees.
I looked at the wheel, and noticed its 3/4" wide, which is wider than specified (1/2" ).
So I found an apparently unused one in the box which came with the grinder - it's a A46J7 of unknown manufacturer, but it rings so I thought I'd try it. I tried to dress it 'open' - moved the diamond across quite fast, took several thou off the wheel before it cleaned up across.

5-D64-EE1-F-3-DEA-4-AD9-9-E62-F458-C92-CB032.jpg


The results are encouraging:

F1037-BE3-4-E53-4-C03-993-E-0-D4-BDA38-E241.jpg


This is 30mm square CRS. There is still some of the patterning, but it's much more like a ground finish.
I assume the 'roughness' is part the grit and part the dressing? How much difference does feed speed make?

Note I have not ground the chuck, or setup the coolant system yet, so I'm not trying for size, just to understand the machine, how it moves, which direction to turn the handles etc. I

My new wheels might arrive this week, then I'll try some more things. I ordered a 46K ceramic ( SG) and a 60K Alox both 1/2" wide.

Dave
 
You do have to grind the chuck but only if it's been dismounted. But get in the habit of stoning it with a hard smooth stone fairly often. And if you do have to grind in your chuck, grind the bottom first and then the top. And use coolant. Rig up a pond pump in a 5 gallon bucket if you have to.

Absolutely the long axis feed rate makes a difference in finish. Rough at high speed with small stepovers, finish and spark out with lower (traverse) speed and much wider stepovers.

Boy, that piece looks better than your first one!

metalmagpie
 
Just to conclude on this:
I pulled the spindle (4 bolts + assorted cover pieces) so I could measure the end float properly, having spoken to Andmar and obtained a copy of the spindle page from the manual.
It did have just over 3 thou endfloat.
I discovered that the rear bearing / seal 'carrier' was very slightly loose - it threads into the spindle housing.
After tightening that up and buggering about to get the endfloat correct Ive ended up with about 4.5 tenths vs the spec of 4. I decided that was close enough after quite a long time of trying to get it bang on...
Boshed it back in, ran it up for an hour or so, now spindle housing gets warm to the touch, but not hot.
It should be 20C above ambient, so that feels about right.
With the same wheel it made almost bugger all different to the surface finish of course, minorly better, but hard to judge in a blind test.

So I rigged a coolant tank up. Now I need to make bigger spray guards...
However the mess isn't that bad, and the surface finish is massively better:

That same 30mm CRS bar:

IMG-7577.jpg

Of course mild steel shows scratches in such a finish when you look at it sideways:

IMG-7578.jpg

Single pass, ~2 thou DOC.
I think Machine is now good enough, Just the operator to sort out :)

Dave
 
QT;scratches in such a finish when you look at it sideways:

Often scratches are from dragging the part off and a little grit on the chuck.
you can lay part on a sheet of copy paper or just saved junk mail catalogs if needing super finish. Most modern paper is need dead flat. Yes, need to measure it to know thickness.
Use a block in block at the go side in worried about holding.

Use the whole chuck by placing parts/work all over the chick so to not make a wash out in one place.

Try to slide or tip the part with two fingers if worried about the mag not holding. Have a light C clamp or two for chancy jobs.

Buy or make up a surface gauge and learn how to check a part for squareness. Cigarette paper or just catalog paper can be shims for tipping a part to make square. you should have a few dead square things about the grinder. 1 2 3 blocks can be handy.
 
Often scratches are from dragging the part off and a little grit on the chuck.


Yep, that's how it mostly happened, + a few from placing it on the bench.

I have a lot of learning to do, but the Suburban Tools videos on YouTube seem helpful.

I already know I need to up my inspection ability, and also the tooling I have, but that's all part of the fun :)

Dave
 
Small gauge plate / mini surface plate I mentioned on anoyhe threatd is super handy for a surface grinder..plus you get pratice grinding..play with it untill you get 12 1/2 millionths square, and to some target size you choose.


A small steel plate perhaps 3/4" 6" x 10" (what ever nice piece of stock you fine)with a way to fix solid a dial indicator should be in every shop. Often you measure a first part and then set your bench check plate for all the others. With going back to your first as a gage check..
CRS if fine enough ..and you can tickle grind it once in a while.
A few screw tap holes allows the afixing a number of simple fixtures to it.
Pre hard at about 45/48 is also good for making this. leave it mild or send it to heat treat/carborize it .

Good to make it perfict square so in a pinch you can use it for a right angle square.
That way it can square a part on the mill or surface grinder.

plus make a 45* that you set (clamp) to your angle plate to slide your bar (diamond ) dresser on so you can quickly dress a 45* to one corner of your wheel.. very handy for making nice 45* corner bevels to parts.
 
Just add a little.
I ground in my chuck. The chuck was new about 10 years ago, and has been sitting around in the workshop, waiting for the grinder to get running....
IMG-7613.jpg

lots of coolant, many passes at 2 tenths.
Came out pretty nice.
IMG-7615.jpg


Then I put my new 46 grit SG wheel on, dressed it and ground a lovely finish dry onto the block I made to hold my diamond.
IMG-7616.jpg


Ground this dry to see how the wheel was like that. Seems ok, but I think the wet finish is better.


Dave
 
QT:[I looked at the wheel, and noticed its 3/4" wide, which is wider than specified (1/2" ).]

A 3/4 Hp spindle should have little/no problem pulling a 3/4 wheel of a 46 grit. A 60 grit or finer might begin to slow it down and so need be avoided if that happens. I like to keep a recess face wheel handy so if a job comes up needing-a-shoulder-grind that would bump my wheel mount face.
With a wheel that is too wide for a grinder's power one can dress the bottom (OD) to -.010 for a portion so reducing the drag on the power. Dressing a wheel bottom, good to put a tag of mashing tape on the cross hand wheel so to remember to cross the wheel less with each dress pass to not grind the diamond’s steel to the side of the diamond.
For conventional cross travel topping one only uses the lead edge of the wheel and the wheel width just becomes the wheel's follow (finisher) portion. For full wheel down grinding one might only step-over 1/2" if the motor is to light to pull a certain wheel. Down grinding is using the full well width (or portion) over the part and incrementing the down-feed with no cross, then to finish you cool the part and incremental cross to finish the part...agree one can’t do this with every wheel or job but it is a great time saver when you can.

*Looks like a great finish Dave
 
Dave, I don’t know if you have a square checker gauge...but a simple surface gauge with having a V on the end can become a square checker, you can set a bearing shell or a ball in the V and with an indicator to roll across a part side to test squareness...yes you need find a master that is square to set zero on the indicator.
Or you can just flip the part, other end up if it has two parallel sides.

Yes do this checking on your gauge plate that you make as a fun project.

Make another block (like your dresser block) and grind a V at its front and a hole for an indicator vertical post and you have a great square checker.

Then grind youe gauge plate to be spot-on square at all sides...for another fun project.

and once you have it (the gauge plate), it will prove handy many times.

Another handy SG thing is a feeler set..with the leafs loose to be used.
Proto J000AA $9.68 Feeler Gauge Set, 25 PC | Zoro.com

QT;[Ground this dry to see how the wheel was like that. Seems ok, but I think the wet finish is better.]
Still dry is fine/Ok ..a lot less mess for running a quick part.
Nowadays I use a simple mask for grinding..
QT:[I have a lot of learning to do, but the Suburban Tools videos on YouTube seem helpful.]
Agree Don Bailey gives some very good grinding advice. Good for a new or old guy to watch them all.
 








 
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