Jones and Shipman 540 help
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  1. #1
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    Default Jones and Shipman 540 help

    Hi Iíve bought what I had hoped was a really good 540P.......only I now believe it may be a complete lemon! So, in fairness to the chap I bought it from he wants to Ďsee me rightí. So, I now need to assess just how bad it is and whether itís worth trying to sort out.
    The front to back main adjustment has 140 thou of backlash, circa 3mm! Rather excessive! So, a new nut and screw are required. Tick, he will buy and send me a new one.
    The wheel flange holders of which I got 3 are completely worn out. The nuts will push onto the threads and the tapers look to have taken a beating. The spindle nose looks fine.
    Itís such a shame, I bought it from a small shop that made and refurbished plastic injection moulding tools for the automotive industry. In the pictures it looked brilliant, original paint, almost pristine.
    What should I check and whatís the best way to check it? Here is my initial thoughts......havenít thought of how to check each.....any pointers would be welcome
    Iím guessing I need to check the micro adjust, that I think is on a different screw?
    Vertical adjust nut and screw
    Spindle bearings for play, end and lateral
    Wear on the ways.
    Hydraulic leak.

    Iíd love to get my hands on a copy of the maintenance manual, but can only find UK Lathes with a copy. Iím a little reluctant to start sinking more money into this until Iím sure the machine is worth it. Any pointers on any for sale / downloadable?

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    To be honest, 3mm back lash isnít small, but it isnít bad in the scheme of things, and wonít affect much of what you can do on the machine as the fine adjustment stops the slop from affecting anything while side grinding. the flanges probably need a bit of a stone up and will be fine, Iíve used worse.

    On a old machine that age, the important parts are

    - checking for vibration when the wheel head is idling, with out a wheel on. Check the spindle end play too, noisey heads will be an indication of something wrong (obviously).

    - checking the reciprocation motion, it should have an equal overtravel and speed in each direction.

    Grind a test piece after the Chuck has been ground and check itís flatness, ideally 150mm by 150mm particularly in the front to back direction, bad machines can be as bad as 0.01mm over 150mm, okay machines can do 0.005mm. And good condition machines will do less then 0.002.


    Iíve used about 12 J&S 1400/540 models over the years all from about 60s/70s. And although some grind perfect, they all had a character that you have to understand in order to get the best from them. Just like an old car.

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    Hi Deema,
    Luke has provided some good pointers, just to add a little, spindle bearings advertised as lubed for life in reality aren't, but with care they can be cleaned and relubed with the correct Kubler grease compared to buying new which can be a bit eye watering. As the machine is British made oil leaks are part of the deal, but combined with grinding dust make an excellent lapping compound, so ongoing cleaning is necessary. A PM has been sent. Alan

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    Mine's a 1400 and I keep finding that there are significant differences between the 540 and 1400 but...

    I'd do some disassembly to make sure that it is really play on the screw/nut rather than the something coming loose.

    Jubilee machine tools have got replacements, but at a somewhat larcenous price (£575+VAT). With the originals to copy, the screw and nut are not particularly complex parts to make in the well equipped home workshop.

    Wheel arbors tend to go for £80 on fleabay to £125+VAT new. The spindle is hardened, the wheel arbors aren't (luckily).

    The micro adjust on the cross==front-to-back feed is a worm drive onto the crossfeed screw, so it's the same as the main arrangement. The fiducial ring on both the cross feed wheel and the vertical feed dial are prone to getting gummed up. they should be able to rotate on the wheels to set zeroes etc. and be locked in place with small thumbscrews. Mine don't-yet, but I haven't got around to stripping and rebuilding them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deema View Post
    I’d love to get my hands on a copy of the maintenance manual, but can only find UK Lathes with a copy. I’m a little reluctant to start sinking more money into this until I’m sure the machine is worth it. Any pointers on any for sale / downloadable?
    Deema,
    I have a pdf copy of a 540 manual. If you send me (click on my name) an email or PM with your email address, I will send it to you.

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    Thanks Luke,
    I’ve taken it apart, the cross feed and nit are both worn out. They oook more like a Whitworth thread than an acme!! The end bearing that the spindle sits in is also worn and will need replacing.
    I’ve run up the spindle, no discernible vibration and there is no measurable end play. So that’s a positive.
    The ways have some indication of scraping on all apart from say the last inch (25mm) but I didn’t do a test grind before I’d taken it apart. I’m glad I didn’t, the ways had what can be best described as grinding paste on them, good mix of hydraulic fluid and grit.
    I ran the pump with the table reciprocation turned off expevting to see hydraulic oil coming out into the ways. One side made an effort but the other didn’t. So, nit sure if the pump is worn out, needs the pressure setting, or the hydraulic block is gummed up or whether it onky oils whilst the table is moving?

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    Thanks Alan,
    Received your message, thank you, but done seem to be able to reply. Tried a few times, perhaps I have to market a number of posts before it will allow me?

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    That’s Peter,
    That s really appreciated, same problem I have trying message Alan.
    I don’t seem to be able to post pictures either. I’d like to do a thread on taking apart putting it back together. I haven’t seen anywhere where someone has done one, and it would have been helpful to me and anyone else thinking of buying one of these machines.
    I’ve taken the machine a long way apart, and amazed at where I’ve found oilers / bleed off ports.

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    Sorry Luke
    Should have also said, I did text the reciprocating action of the table, it’s seems to be smooth and the same speed in either direction. No hydraulic leaks from the cylinder…….at Least not before I’d taken it off!

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    Has anyone taken off the main column? I can see that it is held on by 4 bolts and two pins. Any tips for getting it off? I’d like to check the condition of the vertical screw as well as clean and service the spindle motor.

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    My machine has a the powered rise and fall, there are two oil sumps, one just below the hand wheel and the other at the 90 degree turn to the column. Does anyone know if they are connected? I.e. the entire tube is filled with oil? There is no oil in the uppermost sump, but itís leaking around the little red filler on the bottom one which has an oil can marking on top of it.

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    Managed to pickup up a couple of wheel flanges off eBay so another box ticked. Do I need a wheel balancer? I’ve read posts advocating them and those saying that you don’t need to bother with wheels under 7” in diameter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deema View Post
    Has anyone taken off the main column? I can see that it is held on by 4 bolts and two pins. Any tips for getting it off? Iíd like to check the condition of the vertical screw as well as clean and service the spindle motor.
    You don't need need to take the column off, never heard of anyone doing this. Maybe if you needed to replace the vertical roller guides, but never known anyone to do this either.
    Just take off the the sheet metal guards on the back of the column, the lower one lets you access the vertical leadscrew for cleaning and oiling. The leadscrew has a cylindrical sheet metal cover with an oil port on the top, this just lifts off with a wiggle.

    The spindle motor doesn't need servicing, although it may well need a good clean
    If you're hell bent on taking it out, then you need to loosen and remove the belt, and remove the lower pulley.The pulley has a grub screw opposite the keyway locking it it on, don't try and use a puller without removing this first or you'll break the pulley flange. Disconnect the oil pump hoses and pull the oil reservoir and pump out from the front and move it away, then loosen the electrical panel screws (casting screws) and pivot this out of the way. Then slide a stout board under the motor and leaning on the control panel hole, undo 4 small nuts on the metalastic bushes (close to a 10mm spanner size but imperial..) jiggle the motor to move it away from the slots, then pull it out of the electrical panel hole. You'll need strong forearms or some help.
    Whilst you have it out replace the metalastic bushes on the motor mounting and the hydraulic pump mounting.
    Re-mounting is reverse of the above, and you may as well put a new drive belt on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deema View Post
    My machine has a the powered rise and fall, there are two oil sumps, one just below the hand wheel and the other at the 90 degree turn to the column. Does anyone know if they are connected? I.e. the entire tube is filled with oil? There is no oil in the uppermost sump, but itís leaking around the little red filler on the bottom one which has an oil can marking on top of it.
    No, they're seperate.The top sump provides an oil bath for the planetary gears on the rise and fall handwheel, the lower one on the corner is for the bevel gears. There is another oil bath at the base of the column, at the back. This should be connected to the bevel gear sump, but often blocks with congealed ancient oil. Take the oil nipple off and have a look at the condition of the oil here - you can leave this out whilst you flush new oil through from the bevel gear oil filler.

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    Thanks Peter, appreciate your insights. Do you happen to know if you can remove the vertical head screw without taking the column off?
    I’ve got everything off the front, including all the electrics. The motor and bottom of the column are black and covered in years of congealed hydraulic fluid, oil and grinding dust. Ideally ti get it cleaned up the column off would have been my preference. A little concerned that nobody has done it! I will give this a lot more thought!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deema View Post
    Thanks Peter, appreciate your insights. Do you happen to know if you can remove the vertical head screw without taking the column off?
    From memory (mines up against the wall..)I think there's a flange at the bottom holding it in, but you'll easily be able to see once you take the lower back guard off. If it's been oiled, then it should be OK-ish, as the cover protects it from grinding dust pretty well.

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    I do have an earlier manual with photos of the sub assemblies and part numbers, the later book is not so comprehensive, I could get it copied if you want.
    There is a dismantled 540 on flea bay in the uk which may be available in parts if he can’t sell it whole.
    Peter


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