K.O. B603 Grinder - Help me not make a purchase mistake!

I need some schooling on this surface grinder. I am in consideration of a grinder that has come my way. I know very little about them, and I understand some are not surface grinders, but tooling grinders - I don't really see a tooling setup so I hope not. I'm attaching some pics to show this K.O. B603 which has sat idle for some time in a hoarder's barn. The controls seem to work ok, but there is a LOT of slop (1 rotation) in the cross slide (and 1/4 rotation on the rack). Hopefully that's just a nut adjustment, and doesn't require a new acme or half nuts (assuming it has half nuts!).



Is 03/1947 the manufacture date?



I don't know why my images are flipped, they are normal on my pc and still look flipped when I rotate them and reupload..

I have a small shop and this would just about fit. I know it will need a lot of refurb, and I am not sure if all of the parts are there to make it work. It needs a new plug, so I couldn't test the motor, but its a GE and the bearings had ZERO slop laterally and coaxially. Coincidentally I have a 4x6 mag chuck, so I'd use that on this unit. I appreciate any words to the wise and what to look for when I go back to look at it. I didn't get a good look or feel of the ways, but it appears lightly used upon first inspection.

More pics:






this useful link: http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1738/6626.pdf says that the b603 is a "Chip Breaker grinder", which I've never heard of before, and I cant really find any info online about what that is. I'm assuming that because the other versions of this tool are for tooling, this one is closely related, but would it still be useful as a small surface grinder without the work heads or tooling fixtures?

Last pic.

A surface grinder is for doing high precision work. Do you really think that old rust bucket is capable of high precision work??

That is, essentially, my question. Can I refurb this thing to the point of usefulness.

In general though, well maintained and refurbed old machines can supersede many modern ones, especially when comparing to overseas units, and I do not have $4K+ to spend on what is essentially a hobbyist tool. My 1960's Myford lathe is superior in many ways to anything I could afford today, and, well its got some character. I've put in hours of elbow grease, new bearings, QCTP, baldor 1hp motor, teco vfd, controller, etc. to make it a very pleasurable and capable device. When I bought it, it didn't look much better than this grinder.


Ok, now my pics are forced to low quality. The image upload feature of this site needs serious attention. Its c.2001 in functionality.

That's one of the many different grinders that KO Lee built in it's life time. That fixture next to the table was for holding some sort of cutter blade for sharpening. There's a bunch of tooling in one of the pictures for use to sharpen multiple flute cutters. As for trying to surface grind with this grinder, I think it will give you disappointing results. If you want to sharpen cutters, tool bits and such, it would be good for that. Unless the price is free, I'd pass on it.

Many KoLees are a tool and cutter grinder with scraped oil ways. The surface rust matters little if the ways are good. it is easy enough to lift off the table and look at the ways. also, ways likely can be scraped back to new condition if they are worn.
The wheel spindle should feel smooth as silk, or it will likely need new bearings.
A simple spin index can function as a work head. Good to also have centers for some cutter sharpening.
The universal table reduces its ability to be a tenths capable surface grinder if the table is intended to be used. By locking the table in one place it can be used as a surface grinder.

Really can't tell if it has a universal (rotating) table top from the photos..that distinguishes it from a TC grinder or a surface grinder.

I don't know what "chip breaker grinder" means, I have one (a small koLee)and it seems much the same.

Good to add a 3 prong plug, if it does not have a 3 wire add one and put the ground somewhere to a decent ground.

*XX (1 rotation) in the cross slide, that means that that cross can lock up/skip a half tread. best to take that apart and fix it before a lock-up. some lock-ups are a bugger to get lose and so scrap a lead screw.

If the wheel spindle feels gritty load it with spindle oil and go ahead and try it for a time at low RPM (300)to hope to wash out the rust, likely you cant save it that way but it is worth a try.

Some of those old motors had a place to add oil..check for that

With getting it running free download the Cincinnati TC grinder manual..it is handy for any TC grinder.

It sounds like you prefer to acquire a surface grinder?
The grinder in the picture looks like flaking is still visible on the ways and with some cleaning and lube could do excellent tool & cutter grinding with the right attachments.

However, it will drive you nuts and beat you to death to try to use as a surface grinder on any area of any size.

For a surface grinder, at least get a magnetic chuck, and not the old isolate pole unites, either.
Then seriously, make that very seriously, consider getting at least 2 axis auto. Unless you need to work up your carpel tunnel, tennis elbow, etc, and don't have a better way to spend your time when the grinder could be doing it all for you....

smt

PS: Have you run a surface grinder?
Where are you in NY?
If you are looking at something for $150 or so and have the space, it could be a good way to get started and learn what you really need to know to move on. While still being useful in the corner for a tool grinder after you get the SG. OTOH, if it is priced to blow your acquisition budget, it might keep you from progressing, compared to spending a bit more for the surface grinder with mag chuck & hopefully autofeeds that you need.

Subw00er said:

That is, essentially, my question. Can I refurb this thing to the point of usefulness.

In general though, well maintained and refurbed old machines can supersede many modern ones, especially when comparing to overseas units, and I do not have $4K+ to spend on what is essentially a hobbyist tool. My 1960's Myford lathe is superior in many ways to anything I could afford today, and, well its got some character. I've put in hours of elbow grease, new bearings, QCTP, baldor 1hp motor, teco vfd, controller, etc. to make it a very pleasurable and capable device. When I bought it, it didn't look much better than this grinder.
View attachment 330690
View attachment 330691
Ok, now my pics are forced to low quality. The image upload feature of this site needs serious attention. Its c.2001 in functionality.

Click to expand...

A hobby lathe gets very little use compared to an industrial machine that a company (companies) uses to make money with. This thing may have had hundreds of uncaring employee operators over its lifetime. Anything can be refurbished if you throw enough time and money at it. Likely this would not be just bearings and paint. You would likely have to rescrape the ways to get them perfectly square and parallel.

Take care to not wire brush number dials, but fine file off just that bangs and bumps down to the original manufactured surface with a fine file and oil them to see how they look, if needed then with fine abrasive paper brighten them up. (x)wire brushing wears away/rounds the numbers and lines edges and can even lose the numbers and lines.
You can fine side oil hone all the flat portions, very lightly fine side oil hone the scraped ways to just making some small bright spots, not more than necessary to see only a few bright spots, then perhaps a little steel or brass wools to get off the lower rust.
Sand the painted areas because scraping off all the paint may expose a lot of filler and so make things look worse.
Fill an empty toolbox with all the small stuff that is difficult to replace if lost, good to put things back in place as you progress along.
Penetrate liquid things for a week that are stuck, with trying to not break anything.

*Mostly/often an old grinder may be only a little scraping away from being a perfect dead true machine.

A small TC grinder is worth its space for just grinding drill and end mill ends if nothing more. just a facet/flat drill point at 118 x 12 clearance and then hand back off the heal is much better than most hand sharpened drill points.
The same with end mill ends, nothing difficult or fancy, just machine sharpen at 5 to 10* clearance with an eyeball dish, and by hand add the secondary makes as good as new. A bump stop off the tail end makes ends true.
All you need for a fixture is a Long V block mounted to an angle plate for a fixture. You can make the long V block by putting a 45* on a wheel and grinding one side of the v and then the other side, it doesn't even have to be hard, CRS is Ok for this fixture because when it gets worn you just tickle grind it back to Ok.

*Nowadays I think it is good to avoid breathing grinding dust. So use a drainpipe catch, some shields, a dust collector, a mask, pointing the spark flow, what ever you devise to breath less sparks.

Thanks for all of the input. I already have a diamond wheel grinder for carbide and a proper bit sharpener (drill doctor) which works well enough for my needs for bits up to 3/4". Through my estate sale extravaganzas, I have more bits than I can dull in a lifetime, so my needs for a tool sharpener are basically zero.

I was really looking for a small hobby surface grinder that would actually fit in my shop and could get down the stairs. I want something that would allow me to make a nice finish on small parts. Its looking like this unit may be a square peg in a round hole? Its not clear to me how much refurb it will take to work well, but I'm assuming it will be as much effort my Myford was (two month refurb). I find that sort of work fun, as long as I have some reference material to work off of, but I have not found any good info online, video or otherwise on the small KO's. But I am getting expert at rust removal and if I need to make small parts, my other machines can accommodate that. I assume if I need new K.O.-specific parts, that is a nightmare situation.

Michiganbuck, the table does not appear to rotate. I saw a pic online that showed curved ways on the right side, under this unit looks much like a XY mill table. The head presumably rotates though. Wheel spindle has some slop but otherwise moves pretty nice for unlubricated. "chip breaker grinder" is what the manual cover called it here: http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1738/6626.pdf I cant believe there was an entire machine devoted to grinding chip breakers, but I guess there is. "If the wheel spindle feels gritty load it with spindle oil and go ahead and try it for a time at low RPM (300)to hope to wash out the rust, likely you cant save it that way but it is worth a try." Does this imply that fluid is somehow pumped through the system? I didn't see any provisions for that. I don't even know if it has an oil reservoir and will be a nightmare to transport. Underneath I only saw grease nipples. See here:

The motor appeared to be in very good shape. Its a 110v GE and there was no slop anywhere on the shaft. I'll look for the oiler, but I think most of those old GE's are sealed and robust. I have one on my Delta belt sander that recommends "oiling after 10 years of normal use!" The plug was smashed so I couldn't test it, and I would rewire it with a motor casing ground.

Stephen, I have not run a surface grinder before. I'm about 3 hours from you. It would be well within budget, but I don't want to put a lot of money into it as it will be a low use machine for me. I'm not sure I'd even repaint it after cleaning it up (But I would likely fully disassemble and check it out). Is the main problem that the X axis will take more turns than a proper surface grinder and as a result its a lot more work?

4GSR, you have a keen eye, it was just a blade fixture that was lying on top of the machine, not part of it.

I have a simple on/off level mag chuck. Its not electrical (I don't know much about these, I recently bought it for another fixture use). 4" x 7" Permanent Magnetic Chuck, Rectangular Fine Pole Sealed Chuck, High Precision Hoist Crane Magnet For Grinding Machine Inch Manufacturing Workholding (150x450mm) - - Amazon.com Is that not going work? I have a V and square mag blocks too.

So, if this unit was inexpensive, is it worth the effort to spend a couple weeks cleaning it up and ordering a couple hundred in parts to get it operational? Can I get a decent surface grind (mirror finish) out of it on a 3" flat part? I don't mind if its a little more effort, or has a little less height adjustment accuracy than a proper 2 ton machine. I'd likely use it to just pretty up surfaces that have been milled to get the machine marks out. I'd also use it to true up surfaces on small parts. I am refurbishing a tiny Unimat lathe right now and I could clean up a lot of those parts nicely (grinding off surface rust, or re-parallel'ing mounting surfaces). Most of my work centers around aesthetic or non critical dimensions. I'm just a hobbyist.

Someone said its easy to remove the bed. How is that done so I can investigate the ways?

Thanks again for the insight, really helpful!

I'm pretty sure my spindle has an oil hole, but mine is not a motor-spindle as it is run off a belt to the motor.

QT:[but I think most of those old GE's are sealed and robust.] agree, and built like a very good bench grinder.

Sounds like yours is a TC grinder size but made like a surface grinder...could be a very nice small footprint surface grinder..and not difficult to move about. RE: [and could get down the stairs.]

likey you can make a new cross-feed nut..or buy a nut and fab it to use.

One important thing that everyone has said but maybe you missed.
This is NOT a surface grinder.
It is a tool and cutter grinder.
K.O. Lee made both so it is easy to get confused.
Do not expect to do any high precision (or even medium precision) surface grinding on this.
The way the wheel mounts is different, the geometry of the table is different, the precision of the screws is different, and it will frustrate the hell out of you.
I know this because I made that same mistake.
Now to be clear, I ended up with a nice tool and cutter grinder that I use all the time.
But it is not a surface grinder.

. Is the main problem that the X axis will take more turns than a proper surface grinder and as a result its a lot more work?

Click to expand...

Not directly - that appears to have both rapid and fine feeds. So on rapid it is same/comparable to SG.

It's more what Jkopel describes above ^^^^ combined with the fact that if you have not tried it, hand feed surface grinding is tedious, and not always all that pretty. With auto feeds you cand find a matrix (feed/speed/grit/hardness/wheel structure/coolant) that is wide enough to run reliably almost "every time". Hand feed guys get quite good, too, though most are probably dead if that tells you anything. (Yeah, i know, false correlation, but why take the risk?)

T & C's are also seldom configured for coolant, though mist can be used.

Nonetheless at anything under $150 with as many tooling goodies as you can sell elsewhere if you really don't plan to use them, it would be a fair way to get started. Most T & C grinder manuals have a page about using the machine to surface grind small stuff, and often offered a fixture (small vise or clamp pad, essentially, for that purpose.

Wheel grit, hardness, and structure/porosity will determine if you are successful, assuming spindle bearings are ok. As others said, the bearings are not likely on par with real surface grinder precision; but can be made to work once you understand how. (chicken/egg syndrome). If you choose to not use coolant or mist, get/try an induced porosity wheel, (they entrain air through the side, and fling it out the rim where the heat is generated).

If you think you will end up getting any money sunk in it, keep in mind: small, old, manual surface grinders still turn up, up here for a few hundred$. Real surface grinders, probably with a mag chuck, but you will have to understand how to assess ways and spindles.

good luck!
smt

QT Stephen [Not directly - that appears to have both rapid and fine feeds. So on rapid it is same/comparable to SG.]

Yes, the long travel has two speeds. That is the same as my koLee TC grinder and mine also has considerable free travel, but is still functional enough to be surface grinder travel speed.

The ways (on my grinder) are smaller than most surface grinders but are high precision and would function as a SG.

The spindle motor I see on the OP's grinder is likely well balanced and true running but the wheel extension may not run highly true so to make a wheel mount run true. My wheel mount extension does not run super true, so would not run a SG wheel perfectly. A wheel mounted with not using the extension likely would run good enough to surface grind, but then the motor body would be close and perhaps only a 3" wide part could be surface ground...yes I could true-up my wheel extension or make a better one.

I think it is well worth putting time into and a few hundred.

It could function as a TC or a SG but would have limitations in each use...still it could be a very handy grinder.

*Almost a full turn in the crossfeed should be the first priority.

Thanks for the replies guys. If I can get it cheap I think I'll go for it and take the risk of it being something I'll have to sell on, or maybe make a little restoration project out of it, I like that sort of thing.

One question, I guess grinders often have an oil reservoir, but this does not appear to. I see grease nipples underneath instead. What is the reservoir for, just the fast turn? cooling?

The belt driven cartridge spindle is oil-filled but it looks like your machine does not have a cartridge spindle.

Many grinders have oil pockets for oiled ways, I believe your grinder does not have this.

Some older motors have a screw at the shaft bearings where you add a few drops of oil every few years. I don't know if your motor has that.