KO Lee versus Deckel S11
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  1. #1
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    Default KO Lee versus Deckel S11

    Can someone with experience with these T&C grinders give me some feedback about tradeoffs. Obviously the Deckel is more expensive, but would like to understand from a capability standpoint what the trade-offs are. Thx.

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    I have not run the Deckel s11 but it looks like it has many features of the Monoset and perhaps even more. I think it would out grind the KoLee.. the Deckel dressing features are/seem very capable so fancy one-ups specials may in its uses.....

    Yes I have run the Monoset and it is a fine machine but needs to be in good condition to pick up a sprial flute.

    The Ko lee is much like a Cincinnati #2 and can do all the jobs in the #2 hand book but just not quite as fast. Yes with any cutter sharpening the free download cinci manual should be handy...

    YouTube

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    It strikes me that the Deckel S11 is like a Monoset on steroids, and as you say the KO Lee is modelled after the Cincinatti #2. So maybe the question should be "How to contrast a Cincinatti #2 versus a Monoset?"

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    The Cincinnati #2 is the hot rod machine for sharpening simpler work like mill cutters, reamers gun drills, hobs, slash point drills. needs an air spindle to do small sprials. can do fancy work with having a fancy wheel dresser. Is very quick to go from centers to work head. With a fancy wheel dresser can do most anything very fast. Usually considered a .001 machine but a good grinder hand can pull tenths with bump and counting sparks. Hand wheel dials are .001
    The Brown & Sharpe 13 is a more/very accurate machine than the Cinci #2, is slower, can function as a very good OD grinder. Needs an air spindle to do small spirals.can do fancy work with having a fancy wheel dresser. Can function as a surface grinder. Has a pick (tenths) in-feed on cross...
    The Monoset can do many radius cutters, spiral, step tools, most anything..can do fancy work with having a fancy wheel dresser.
    Royal Oak can radial relief cutters and can do specials with crushing a wheel for fancy work. needs an air spindle to do small spirals. a very capable accurate machine.
    Deckel s11 seems to be able to dress wheel to special forms, do sprials flutes, facet and radial relief..likely not as easy as in the you-tube but it looks very capable.
    Surface grinder can do most anything with having proper accessories..But puts the operator on a poor position to see the work.
    * I have not used the Deckel so just going from watching the you-tube. From Germany and looks very good.
    * A skilled grinder hand can make/sharpen most anything with any one of these machines but needs the proper accessories..
    The ko lee is like the Cincy and can do much the same work..some a little slower because it is not a roller /ball machine. The ko lee sensitive work head can run spirals of a finger very well...almost as good as an air spindle.
    *Deckel and Royal Oak have a shadow graph so this feature makes fancy work easier.
    Yes you can use crush wheels on any grinder.

    Royal Oak youtube,
    royal oak grinder - Video Search Results

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    Very useful and helpful information, thanks!

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    For much fancy grinding the dilemma is is dressing or retaining a form or sharp corners and shapes so the tool shape can be made in one or few passes, or being able to make a number of passes that achieve the shape, or having a number of wheels that together make the fancy form, or having a fixture that will move the cutter is such a way to make the grind..
    For simple grinding it is producing enough against costs to make a profit.
    Each TC grinder uses one or some of these features.

    The Cincinnati #2 (and the like) with faster set up ability is king at making a slash grind on a cutter edge so is perhaps the best machine for high production sharpening..like running 50 of the same reamer needing to grind only one facet of a row of cutters...and yes it can do fancy grinding with grinder hand skills.

    The Monoset , Royal Oak and the Declel might make a very fancy specials (along with simple work) but may require fancy wheel shaping to to do so.
    The very high priced CNC Tc grinder might use catalog wheels but often has a stack of wheels on a spindle to function.
    One has to decide what grinding type and then decide.
    I think for the bigger shop doing a needed cutter or occasional hot job sharpening and a special cutter once in a while the Declel would be a good choice.
    But for the same shop ordering specials from a top cutter shop might be the best choice. Like Special Drill and Reamer here in Michigan. Not only do you get the cutter properly made but often you will get advice how it might be designed.

    Still every machine shop should have some kind of TC grinder, and know a cutter sharpening source just down the street.

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    This is for very limited volume in-house work. Will out-source for most tasks. My shop is way out in the boonies so having TC grinder on-hand for late night work when I really need something done real-time is the thought, and for various misc odd grinding tasks.

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    Hi drcoelho:
    If I was buying for your stated needs I'd love to have a rebuilt Monoset in my shop, but I'd grab a Deckel S11 in a heartbeat if I could score one for a reasonable price.
    Problem is they're usually so far out in fantasy land pricewise I cannot bring myself to drop the cash,

    There is another brand that I've run that is very good for much of the kind of work you describe.
    It is a Spanish machine, long out of production but I found it super useful when I owned one and I regret selling it.

    The brand was "Elite" and the model number was AR 5E.
    You still see them from time to time on Ebay.
    In fact, here's one:
    12 24 Elite A.R.5-E TOOL & CUTTER GRINDER | eBay

    I have a personal dislike for KO Lee, but that's just me.
    One of the toolrooms I worked in had a KO Lee surface grinder and it was a widely hated machine mostly because the handwheels were backward (Table feed on the right, cross feed on the left).
    It was also bouncy and flimsy...about like the smallest Boyar Schultz.
    We all avoided it except for cutting off ejector pins...that cutoff disc was on it for YEARS...in fact I don't think I ever saw a grinding wheel on it.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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    I own an S11 and I can say it's THE machine for the kind of shop you have.

    I've owned numerous lathes and mills and everytime I bought a new mill or lathe, it was because it was a better / newer machine than the one it was supposed to replace.
    And indeed, most of the time, it turned out to be better.
    But never did a "new" lathe or mill give me the feeling that I had something totally different as the S11 did over the previous T&C grinders I had in the past.

    An experienced grinder hand will do almost anything with any machine, but the S11 is awesome for its ease of use and speed. (for a T&C grinder, that is).

    It is incredibly well thought out.
    It's very particular layout with the "T" shaped base, the fact that all the members are on rollers with quick locking levers, the reasonable weight of the various accessories and the motorized (up/down) wheelhead make for a very comfortable and quick use. That makes a world of difference over othre machines imho.

    Don't get me wrong : tool grinding is SLOW and an art that is very difficult to master.
    It requires an incredible number of operations even for simple cutters, and numerous different setups.
    An S11 won't make it quick nor easy, but it will make it as quick and easy as possible for a manual machine.

    If you haven't done it yet, check out that video :



    It will give you a pretty good idea of what the machine is capable of, and its ease of operation (don't bee fooled by Mr Muscle moving the machine members as if the movie had been shot on the moon because they are slightly heavier than the video would suggest, but only slightly).

    Judging from the litterature I read and observing the machines, I think the S11 is much more versatile than a Monoset, a Christen AU150 or a Hahn & Kolb WS54 (all of those machines featuring a built-in spiral grinding device).
    It's sole competitor may be the latest manual Saacke, but the latter appears to be an S11 clone more or less.

    If you can afford it (make sure it has all the accessories you'll need because otherwise, you may have to spend yet a fair amount of cash to get it where you want), go for it !


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