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Motor on headstock of Brown & Sharpe #13 universal grinder single or three phase?

LFLondon

Hot Rolled
Joined
Dec 1, 2007
Location
North Carolina
Is the 120 volt 15 amp 60 cycle 1/6 hp motor on the headstock of a Brown & Sharpe #13 universal grinder single phase or three phase?
 
Is the 120 volt 15 amp 60 cycle 1/6 hp motor on the headstock of a Brown & Sharpe #13 universal grinder single phase or three phase?

Fractional-HP 3-Phase @ 120 VAC motors "exist". ISTR an "option" on industrial "sweatshop" grade sewing machines?

Such a critter would need an on-machine transformer for source as the "service" does NOT otherwise ordinarily exist.

I can't see that likely on anything B&S put their nameplate on.

1/6 HP 3-Phase motor would also have lower FLA than 15 A. Could the "15" be "1.5" A?

So SHOULD a 1-P 1/6 HP motor FLA be lower. Typical is only about 3.5 Amps.
Doesn't happen to be a special-purpose motor, does it? Inbuilt variable-speed?

1-P should have minimum 2-wire service to it, 2 "WG" - With Ground - more likely.
3-Phase you would have one more conductor, two maybe for a Wye service that carried the Neutral to it, utilized or never.

Neutral isn't PE/Ground "legally" even when measured at identical potential to Earth AS "ground", as it tends to not REMAIN so in all potential (pun intended) circumstances.

That 15 A is waaaay off. Around 4 times the ordinary. Can we see a dataplate foto?
 
Very unusual to find 120V 3 phase motors. I have never seen one

Hello John and thermite. I am glad you all are still visiting PM. I spent years reading your posts. Indefatigable is the word. Hope you are doing well. I strayed from PM to Facebook machinist groups and started one of my own (Creative Machining Projects). I just barely get by with electricals. My B&S#13 won;t start up and I found two blown fuses connected to the transformer. I checked voltage to them and it was (at night) 268 volts; the next day at 4pm 263. I put new fuses in and they blew also. So the problem is my rotary converter or maybe starter relay/switches in the machine. No money for repair or new components or knowledge of how to install them. At this time I plan to swap out the B&S main spindle motor with a new Baldor 220v 2hp motor wired with power cord to my 220v 1 phase shop outlets.
The headstock motor can be plugged into a 120v 1 phase outlet. The oil pump motor will have to be swapped out at some time for a 1 phase.

That pretty much settles it. It is 110vac 15a 60 cycle 1 phase motor. The motor on the oil pump is 1/6 hp 3 phase. This one is on the headstock and has a plug in power connection so you can take the headstock off the machine or move it along the bed as needed.

What are your thoughts on such a conversion? I need to use the machine and this is my only option. I see no reason why it wouldn't work. Thanks to you and thermite for your feedback.

Lawrence
 
What are your thoughts on such a conversion? I need to use the machine and this is my only option. I see no reason why it wouldn't work. Thanks to you and thermite for your feedback.

Lawrence

I'm not a fan of "recent" Baldor motors. Even their "room mate" Reliance are not what they once where. But they do go round and round.

A SG with direct coupled motor right on the spindle benefits form retaining 3-P.
Once you introduce a belt, 1-P isn't such a detriment.

Worst-case you MIGHT see some "watermarking" pattern on finely ground surfaces. But maybe NOT. And it won't be a washboard road, even so, only an optically detectable artifact, worse-case.

So long as what you plan is readily reversible back to OEM, there's no lasting harm, so just do it and use it. Do mind spindle lube and warm-up! They are costly buggers to have rebuilt! Plenty of info on that.

Cheapest "substitute" coalant pump under my roof replaces a fancy German 3-P one for the Kasto PHS. US made "Little Giant" at about $25, "NOS". Made and sold as a "condensate pump" for large commercial air-conditioners. That's probably a larger market than the machine-tool industry and priced to compete accordingly.

Next cheapest a Becket out of Texas, about $50, also mostly plastic.

These handle my Houghton water-emulsion coolants.

A far heavier built Cast Iron Flar @ $90 was made in Taiwan. Neat cutting oil, no water, for that one.

NONE are "submersible". All are the common motor atop a shaft housing, only the pumping elements submerged down in the coolant.

USED pumps are a dice roll. Expect them to be trashed, risk of dead-loss plus postage. DAMHIKT!

And all of my pumps are 230 VAC or 120/240 VAC and SINGLE PHASE.

1-P is ALWAYS there, whether you run it separately out of the wall, or tap two hots of an on-machine 3-P supply. 1-P also uses simpler, more common, and cheaper switches!
 
I'm not a fan of "recent" Baldor motors. Even their "room mate" Reliance are not what they once where. But they do go round and round.


How about a Baldor bought around 10-12 years ago? That describes mine and its new in box.


A SG with direct coupled motor right on the spindle benefits form retaining 3-P.
Once you introduce a belt, 1-P isn't such a detriment.

The spindle drive motor has a pulley and belt connected to a pulley on the spindle so as you suggest 1 or 3 phase might not be an issue.

spindlepulleysDSCN3960.jpg

Worst-case you MIGHT see some "watermarking" pattern on finely ground surfaces. But maybe NOT. And it won't be a washboard road, even so, only an optically detectable artifact, worse-case.

That is good news. Someone else suggested the finish would be unacceptable with a 1 phase motor. It will be good enough for the work I will do.

So long as what you plan is readily reversible back to OEM, there's no lasting harm, so just do it and use it. Do mind spindle lube and warm-up! They are costly buggers to have rebuilt! Plenty of info on that.

It will be fully reversible back to OEM. I will only remove the 3 phase spindle drive motor and pull it's wires out of the control cabinet after photographing and tagging them. I will be careful about spindle lube and warmup.

Cheapest "substitute" coalant pump under my roof replaces a fancy German 3-P one for the Kasto PHS. US made "Little Giant" at about $25, "NOS". Made and sold as a "condensate pump" for large commercial air-conditioners. That's probably a larger market than the machine-tool industry and priced to compete accordingly.

Next cheapest a Becket out of Texas, about $50, also mostly plastic.

These handle my Houghton water-emulsion coolants.

A far heavier built Cast Iron Flar @ $90 was made in Taiwan. Neat cutting oil, no water, for that one.

NONE are "submersible". All are the common motor atop a shaft housing, only the pumping elements submerged down in the coolant.

USED pumps are a dice roll. Expect them to be trashed, risk of dead-loss plus postage. DAMHIKT!

And all of my pumps are 230 VAC or 120/240 VAC and SINGLE PHASE.

The 3 phase 1/6 hp pump motor drives the actual oil (way oil) pump by way of a pulley on the motor arbor and belt. I would dismount the motor and replace it with a 1 phase one. I can live without power feed mostly (I was told before I bought the machine that it didn't work anyway) but need lube for the ways and other moving parts. I wonder if there is any way to lube the machine with way oil without having to have the OEM pump functional.

pumpmotorDSCN3962.jpg

The #13 ran fine for years up to about a year ago and there has been no change in the functionality of the 20 hp rotary converter that supplies power to the breaker panel and outlet the machine is plugged into (it is not hard wired but has a heavy power cord). Just in the past week it has failed, won't start and blew two new fuses that replaced the two older ones that blew. They are connected to wires from the adjoining transformer.

1-P is ALWAYS there, whether you run it separately out of the wall, or tap two hots of an on-machine 3-P supply. 1-P also uses simpler, more common, and cheaper switches!

[/quote]

It sure is convenient and easy to install and maintain!

Thanks very much for your advice!

LL
 
How about a Baldor bought around 10-12 years ago? That describes mine and its new in box.
That's recent. Ft. Smith or Mexico, either one.

:(

But back to conversion in general.

You can make this work with 1-P, but if you HAVE an RPC it makes more sense to sort the electrical issues and leave it ALL 3-P.

Among other things, grinders should have "TENV" motors, throughout, not even "TEFC".

And - having done it as 88-cent an hour Day Job in production, hour after hour, I hope to NEVER again have to hand-crank an SG!

So high on MY list would be repair of the powered feed(s). It just isn't that hard.

2CW .. B&S #2, Taft-Pierce, Parker-Majestic.
 
Thanks for the extra feedback, thermite. I am very budget constrained so will have to work my way through all this. I think fixing the problem may run into money I don't have to put into it,
i.e. any consultant or components and I am not experienced enough to troubleshoot and rebuild. Converting the grinding spindle motor to 1 phase is something I can do and this will get me up and running.
Is there any way to manually lubricate the machine without the oil pump? I am thinking the pump may be OK for lubrication but not operating the table feed as I was advised it wouldn't by the vendor. I could always chuck up the pulley to the oil pump in an electric drill and give it a spin before using the machine if the pump will actually lube the machine.
 
Thanks for the extra feedback, thermite. I am very budget constrained so will have to work my way through all this. I think fixing the problem may run into money I don't have to put into it,
i.e. any consultant or components and I am not experienced enough to troubleshoot and rebuild. Converting the grinding spindle motor to 1 phase is something I can do and this will get me up and running.
Is there any way to manually lubricate the machine without the oil pump? I am thinking the pump may be OK for lubrication but not operating the table feed as I was advised it wouldn't by the vendor. I could always chuck up the pulley to the oil pump in an electric drill and give it a spin before using the machine if the pump will actually lube the machine.

I submit you are underestimating your abilty to fix, and/or over-estimating what it might take to "repair what is already there."

Adapting takes skill and effort ALSO.

Fixing what's amiss, you have support, need not "invent" even a lone bracket or screw hole.
You can get "as built" information and aid from other users who also run their ones "as built".

Modifying is not as painless. Even on simple moves, you are re-inventing a wheel, alone, and in the dark.

EXTRA work is neither a "shortcut", nor even economical.
 








 
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