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New home machinist looking for guidance...types of work for a grinding

aefriot

Aluminum
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
I am looking for types of work one could expect for a surface grinder or general grinder. We are in the middle of a rural area of 42 people/mi^2. There are few industries. The owner of the local sharpening business just retired and another started (perhaps he bought the equipment of the retiring person), but he is 45 minutes from here.

What types of grinding work could I expect? I don't want to get full time work as I have many other interests and responsibilities. I just like machining and want part time income to pay taxes in retirement. All I can think of are knife sharpening and grinding of custom knife profiles for local Amish shops.

I am looking at a Jakobsen SJ1432 ( I think I got the model correct ) surface grinder and a Brown & Sharpe #13 universal grinder. As far as I can tell around here, nobody likes to grind. I like detailed work and don't want to take on a lot of work.

Anyone have experience in a rural area and knows of the types of work and amount of work I might expect to pick up?
 
Being in an upstate Ag county surrounded by farmers myself, (ignoring vast conurbations like Elmira proper) :)

Anyone have experience in a rural area....

Yes.

.....and knows of the types of work and amount of work I might expect to pick up?

Nuisance work.
Sharpen shears, scissors, maybe occasional knife, demo-hammer bits and such, -if- you advertise. Drill bits. Chainsaws could be some volume. Sickle bar teeth.
None of which require surface or T & C grinders. Planer blades, maybe. Ideally needs specific shear & knife grinder, not the kind you mention. Striations should be perpendicular to edge, most types should be lightly hollow ground. (There is some long shear and knife work in some areas for industrial machines, but you better know your trade & have the right machines.)
Carbide tipped saw blades, if you can do them cheaper than getting new at home Depot. Maybe some Ag/forest parts if you are willing to work really cheap.

Well, actually, i always avoided it and of course never advertised for such. So you never know. I do machine work for some neighbors, but discourage the grinding stuff even though well equipped here. Make tooling for other woodworkers, but most of them are out of state, not local.

Which begs the question: do you have actual grinding experience?
It's not simple. Not even starting with the wheel spec.

Good luck!

smt
 
Thank you for the input and insight. I have no experience with all grinding types. My primary interest was doing grinding for local Amish. Much of their work gets shipped out of state. I thought if I could get grinding/sharpening work for them I could eventually get more of their machining work as their own local machinist...well...just say he isn't particular nor good with math. Other English machinists are busy and cannot get work done for weeks. That's not good for farmers with broken machinery, dull knives and old household equipment needing repairs or parts. I use similar tools that they use and know of the different grinds and am learning of the different stones. I am not in a hurry to do this, I was thinking if I was going to put together my own machine shop, I could add a tool or two to help Amish friends and pay taxes.
 
I'd look at parts/products and ask yourself, "Did they use a grinder to make this, and what kind?" I think of surface grinding as near the top in precision. Sharpening things, though it needs a sort of precision, isn't usually in the same league. You might look at one of the high end dedicated sharpening machines. They're usually used free-hand. There are jobs like building up an axle and grinding it back to spec, but that's kind of specialized stuff and can be expensive to do right. IMO, precision grinding shops are in less demand these days, and the ones that are have things like centerless grinding, shaft straightening and other niche specialties. The type of work you want to do seems very mixed and you'll need to be a jack of all trades.
 
Thank you for the input and insight. I have no experience with all grinding types. My primary interest was doing grinding for local Amish. Much of their work gets shipped out of state. I thought if I could get grinding/sharpening work for them I could eventually get more of their machining work as their own local machinist...well...just say he isn't particular nor good with math. Other English machinists are busy and cannot get work done for weeks. That's not good for farmers with broken machinery, dull knives and old household equipment needing repairs or parts. I use similar tools that they use and know of the different grinds and am learning of the different stones. I am not in a hurry to do this, I was thinking if I was going to put together my own machine shop, I could add a tool or two to help Amish friends and pay taxes.


Well, that would be a good market.
My primary experience with Amish/Mennonite was in MD & PA
They tend to be close knit, pay cash, don't shop much unless a friend clues them in to a better deal; and refer all their friends to a source they like.

My sense would be that a tool & cutter grinder like a Cincy #2 with a good pile of accessories and tooling would be most flexible.
For instance, it can do all sorts of tools & cutters as might be imagined, and can also do light cylindrical grinding including tapers. Much more, as well.

Alternately, a decent sized surface grinder with a load of tooling can, too, sometimes even more convenient for some forms of cutter/tool sharpening.
618 minimumm, 8 x 24 better, even a 30" machine would not be amiss. Ag focused cultures with horses don't tend to use a lot of small fine parts in daily work. There do seem to be a lot of woodworking based Amish shops, potentially for cutters.

Either way, tooling, tooling, tooling, and a pile of wheels. Neither machine is easy to learn to use *efficiently* & takes quite a bit of use to build competent experience on. Most of the work i can think of can be essentially held up to a pedestal grinder; or one of the Baldor style "carbide" grinders if good wheels could be found for them anymore.

Per a mention in your first post, if you were somehow thinking of making profile knives for shapers and moulders, a Wadkin or Weinig profile grinder is the correct machine. I grind piles of large shaper/moulder profile knives freehand for use here, but would never advertise the service for other shops due to liability. I have made some for people i know/trust, but if it is regular work, you need the proper machines.

Why don't you ask a few friends what they send out for grinding, to help inform your direction for equipment acquisition?

smt
 
T am a Jack of all trades. I need diversity or I get bored...very bored. The more diversified I am the better as I can be busy enough to earn what I need and I can choose what I do at that time. I know customers expect things done soon and they believe they are the only one I would work for, but most of my customers would ride buggies. They understand things take time. Around here, niche services require very high service fees or a lot of travel. I don't want either. I want to be able to enjoy my life and not be focused on making money, just doing enough to keep my mind active stay out of the old folks home and earn enough to fend off the tax collector. I figure there are enough Amish here (600 families) to stay as busy as I want.
 
Well, that would be a good market.
My primary experience with Amish/Mennonite was in MD & PA
They tend to be close knit, pay cash, don't shop much unless a friend clues them in to a better deal; and refer all their friends to a source they like.

My sense would be that a tool & cutter grinder like a Cincy #2 with a good pile of accessories and tooling would be most flexible.
For instance, it can do all sorts of tools & cutters as might be imagined, and can also do light cylindrical grinding including tapers. Much more, as well.

Alternately, a decent sized surface grinder with a load of tooling can, too, sometimes even more convenient for some forms of cutter/tool sharpening.
618 minimumm, 8 x 24 better, even a 30" machine would not be amiss. Ag focused cultures with horses don't tend to use a lot of small fine parts in daily work. There do seem to be a lot of woodworking based Amish shops, potentially for cutters.

Either way, tooling, tooling, tooling, and a pile of wheels. Neither machine is easy to learn to use *efficiently* & takes quite a bit of use to build competent experience on. Most of the work i can think of can be essentially held up to a pedestal grinder; or one of the Baldor style "carbide" grinders if good wheels could be found for them anymore.

Per a mention in your first post, if you were somehow thinking of making profile knives for shapers and moulders, a Wadkin or Weinig profile grinder is the correct machine. I grind piles of large shaper/moulder profile knives freehand for use here, but would never advertise the service for other shops due to liability. I have made some for people i know/trust, but if it is regular work, you need the proper machines.

Why don't you ask a few friends what they send out for grinding, to help inform your direction for equipment acquisition?

smt


Thank you very much! It is nice to get not only input, but recommendations as to types of equipment.

I will have to look at the equipment you suggest. I recently looked at a Oliver of Adrian 102LR Tool Cutter Grinder. It is tall but its price is very reasonable. Looks like it would be very good for very configurable angles. It just has small work surfaces.
The surface grinder I'm looking at is a 14 x 32 hydraulic machine and it is local so no trucking fees. I will have to look at the Wadkin and Weinig machines. I don't want to go all-out on buying machines and then cannot afford tooling. I prefer to get good quality used machines that have been maintained properly and spend money on tooling.

I have asked a local machinist about grinding. All he would tell me is he does not do it. But he would sell me his surface grinder.

Again, thank you for your response.
 
I've spent a lot of time grinding on a B+S #13 grinding punches and other cylindrical parts as well as lots of grinding carbide ID's and all other forms of grinding.

When I retired I talked to a friend of mine that owns a shop and I asked him if he ever had any grinding that he sent out. He told me that most things he can hard turn with the right inserts so he doesn't need any grinding done. I turned down a nice #13 for $500 but if there isn't much work for it why own it?
 
.....
I have asked a local machinist about grinding. All he would tell me is he does not do it. But he would sell me his surface grinder.
LOL, a lot of very good machinists cnc or manual do not like grinding.
Perhaps this opens a niche. It still remains an art even with a 3/4 million dollar grinder or a $500 Harig.
Bob
 
...if there isn't much work for it why own it?

I hear you. Perhaps I need more information from my Amish neighbors to see what kind of grinding they need done and how often. If one family needs grinding dne once or twice a year maybe not, but multiply that once or twice by up to 600 for the Amish community near here.
 
LOL, a lot of very good machinists cnc or manual do not like grinding.
Perhaps this opens a niche. It still remains an art even with a 3/4 million dollar grinder or a $500 Harig.
Bob

Like line boring. Either you like it and do it or you don't and choose to do something else. There is a lot of work for line borers, even here, but travel is required and you should be accept getting cold and wet at times.

Niches can be a comfortable place to be though.
 
If my initiative was to work on antique ag equipment in daily use, first machine after a big DP & pedestal grinder(s)would be a heavy shaper.
&/or a small to medium boring mill.

The grinders would come along to support tooling for the other machines.
Like make cutters for the shaper to make or repair 2 pitch CI gears and such....


:)

smt
 
If my initiative was to work on antique ag equipment in daily use,

smt

Most of the work I will be doing is for my own small vegetable farm and "playing" with making big toys. Most of the other work I expect will be sharpening wood tooling, but I suspect that since I am much closer to my Amish neighbors than the next closest machine shop they will be stopping for other work as well. I will see what time will bring. Heck, I have a year to think about this. Talking to them will really give me an idea of what I could expect. I know a good lathe will be valuable for extra cash. I have welders, oxy/acet, one big drill press, one small drill press and lots of hand and power tools. In reality, my own needs come first, but I will be keeping an eye out for the right machines for helping my neighbors...and my wallet.

Oh, I also have a really big Cincinnati milling machine. I just have to figure out how to move it here and what to do with it. It is a hydrotel. I am thinking I can convert and repurpose it since I do not believe I will have much, if any, work for such a large machine. Nobody has one near here that I know of. I think I will have to disassemble it to move it myself. Clean, modify, lubricate and reassemble.

Also, since it was mentioned...shapers are still relevant? Last week I was talking to a machinist friend. He tells me that since mills have become larger, more powerful and tooling has become better that shapers have gone the way of the dinosaur. I rarely see them for sale. What is your take?
 
I was in a nearly fully CNC production shop in Edmonton several years back, nice place, quiet running machines, well lit, white painted floors, etc.

Big old ancient looking Shaper sitting in the middle of the shop floor.

They charged out rates on it that would make a mob Lawyer blush for the shame of it, and did jobs with it that were best suited for just such a machine. Mostly putting keyways in big oilfield equipment gears, that would be way too expensive to try to keep broaches available on hand, let alone presses big enough.

They were pretty adamant that that shaper earned it's place on the floor, because they could do what most other shops could not, when they needed to.

A slotter might be of equal use, maybe more useful. But only if the work available fits it.

I'd say that spending some time getting feedback from potential customers, could save you buying something that isn't really going to help you out.

My wife did Dog Grooming for a couple years. A fella with a portable sharpening shop in his minivan used to come around about once a month, and sharpened her clipper blades and scissors. Seemed to be doing OK, him. There are a few specialized tools to buy, but not super expensive.
 
I was in a nearly fully CNC production shop in Edmonton several years back, nice place, quiet running machines, well lit, white painted floors, etc.

Big old ancient looking Shaper sitting in the middle of the shop floor.

They charged out rates on it that would make a mob Lawyer blush for the shame of it, and did jobs with it that were best suited for just such a machine. Mostly putting keyways in big oilfield equipment gears, that would be way too expensive to try to keep broaches available on hand, let alone presses big enough.

They were pretty adamant that that shaper earned it's place on the floor, because they could do what most other shops could not, when they needed to.

A slotter might be of equal use, maybe more useful. But only if the work available fits it.

I'd say that spending some time getting feedback from potential customers, could save you buying something that isn't really going to help you out.

My wife did Dog Grooming for a couple years. A fella with a portable sharpening shop in his minivan used to come around about once a month, and sharpened her clipper blades and scissors. Seemed to be doing OK, him. There are a few specialized tools to buy, but not super expensive.

Once again I get reminded I don't know what I don't know. I would not have thought a shaper would be used fr internal machining. I have only seen them making long strokes on unfinished cast material to make it flat or make dovetails. Even after you tell me of internal gear keyways being cut on a shaper, I still think of broaches. I guess I must keep perspective in mind when deciding on machines, work and who else can do it.

There might be hope for my 38,000# Cincinnati mill to pay off yet. Luckily, it doesn't have far to go, financially, it cost me nothing. All I have to do is hire a big excavator to drag it across a couple fields on skids or take it apart in small enough parts to be carried by my backhoe or dragged by my dump truck. I'm thinking that disassembling the major parts will be the way to do it. Then I can clean and lubricate it as it either goes back to its original form or I make an entirely different machine to suit my needs.

A mobile shop is an interesting idea for smaller machining and sharpening services.

Thank you!
 
I'd suggest a lathe in the mix, too.

Having grown up Amish/Mennonite on a farm, safe to say Amish/Mennonite farmers are tight with a buck. (Raised the son of a Depression baby has served me well on occasion :D). Mostly interesting people presenting challenging jobs, so if you're up for odd stuff, go for it. As a moneymaker, well, maybe not so much.
 
A shaper can do most any "milling" type job more or less efficiently, except pockets.
Most of them with a $2 piece of HSS hand ground & honed for the job.

Dovetails, big gears, keyways so long as there is a drilled relief, all with cheap bits and no fancy custom cutters bought to accomplish one odd-ball job that comes in the shop. If there is a lot of stock to take off, a big shaper will do surfacing faster than a BP size mill, or it will do it cheaper than buying big face mills for a large mill, if the work varies all the time. Like a grinder, the shaper will plane while you do other things, perhaps on a lathe, or on a mill. Shapers are especially good for surfacing weldments and trashy assemblies and castings because instead of a glitch taking out a set of inserts and maybe wrecking some pockets, just remove the tool bit, resharpen it, and go back to work.

On top of that, a tight, heavy shaper will do all sorts of internal work. You would need to tool up for holders, but again, no custom or expensive specialty cutters.

This is why i think if you get grinding equipment, the shaper is an ideal companion for a range of "oddball" work that is not accessible by other means.

The people who say a shaper is slow are either doing production work, where it would often be deathly slow.

Commonly, though, they are just repeating what they heard or imagine based on lack of experience and tooling.
If the typical BP was tooled up the way most people think of tooling a shaper, it would have a drill chuck, set of drills, a 1/2" collet and a few chipped EM's. That wouldn't be productive, either. :)

All machine tools have a learning curve, though the more you work with, the more cross-over of skills will shorten it for some.
And the best machine tools are only as useful & productive as the tooling & accessories available.

I'm descended from mennonites a few generations back. Time when Mennonites were pacifists, but not otherwise unusual in their practices. Then Grandpa's generation all went off and fought in WW1 & as many other wars as they could find to keep active in. The greats & prior are buried in a PA Mennonite cemetary, don't think anyone since.

smt
 
Only old fart long past gone machinists like shapers.
Outdated in many uses but perhaps the coolest machine tool ever in the world to watch run and make chips.
Hard to describe if you have not see one at heavy work.
Bob
 
It's true that there is very little work in modern times that can afford to be taken to a machines shop, that "fits" on a shaper.
But if the shop is willfully engaged in repairing stuff for antique ag, steam, other heavy "antique" equipment, & truly "oddball" jobs, a shaper is often a good match or a good platform to start with.

smt
 
I'd suggest a lathe in the mix, too.

Having grown up Amish/Mennonite on a farm, safe to say Amish/Mennonite farmers are tight with a buck. (Raised the son of a Depression baby has served me well on occasion :D). Mostly interesting people presenting challenging jobs, so if you're up for odd stuff, go for it. As a moneymaker, well, maybe not so much.

Moneymaker I am not. I find more value in helping others and making friends. Unlike Facebook...federal, state and local governments only want cash and maybe a vote or two from me, They don't care how many friends I have.
 








 
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