Wheel Recommendations for 1.2316 stainless steel tool steel

Has anyone got much experience grinding 1.2316?

In my previous experience I’ve ground a lot of 1.2083(stavax), 1.2085, H13 and ramax and have used a Norton 3GS 60/46 J/K type wheel and have had all round very good results in the past.

However this 1.2316 steel is pretty horrible in terms of finish, depth of cut, wheel life.

So I’m wondering if anyone can recommend any wheel specs or any notes for this highish chrome steel. Or anything that’s worked well for mid teens chromium steel?

Slow down the wheel and increase the table speed would be two recommendations I'd offer. Maybe go with a slightly softer wheel if that doesn't do it. I just did some D-2 (12% Cr vs. 16% for 1.2316) at 60Rc, and that's where I ended up. You're going to need pretty frequent dressing regardless if the steel is pretty hard and you're taking much off.

That’s the thing, the steel is in the 30-35 HRC range where other stainless tool steels are normally fully hard.

I should think that will make things a little easier. Use a little more open wheel. Dress it at a pretty good rate so it cuts as freely as possible.

What wheel grade did you use for D2 just out of curiosity?

Just a plain-jane 32A46H wheel.

I'm not really conversant with stainless steels.
But do use & grind 17-4 somewhat often, in smallish parts. (17% chrome) Condition A through various hardness up to H900. (Rc 35 - 45.)
It is easy compared to hardened D2.

Is 1.2316 significantly more difficult?

FWIW, 32A36-J8 Norton. Some 32A46-J8

PS - dug up some photos of finishing work on stainless hardware from a couple years ago, and apparently was using Radiac RA60-J6-V8 for that. Michigan Buck sent it to me along with some other wheels for general work/finishing, but it worked well on 17-4.

smt

It’s no where near as frustrating to grind as D2, but I feel it’s being far more of a pain then it should be.

I will put all your wheel suggestions in to the mix, but I’ve already tried a 38A Norton wheel which wasn’t much good either. The best wheel I’ve used so far is a 3GA 60J unbranded wheel from MSC. But even that just goes blunt after 0.05mm worth of 0.01mm cuts...


The Norton Rep suggested using a SGB wheel if anyone’s used this grit before? He said to use a 70H which is a custom grade, but custom wheels aren’t cost effective as it’s a 15 wheel Min order.

Is there any other wheel manufactures that are decent enough to have wheels particularly for stainless?

Not sure what your experience level is...What is the shape of your part like (small or large surface area being ground?) This shouldn't be that much of a problem. Sounds like perhaps you're not pushing the wheel hard enough to keep it breaking down. Another thing that might help is increasing your downfeed.

What are you using for wheel speed and table speed? Stepover on the cross? It sounds somewhat counterintuitive to some, but increasing the table speed and lowering the wheel speed will help with wheel dulling problems. As the wheel crosses the part, both of those things mean less rotations of the wheel for the same distance traveled across the work - or less length of rubbing of the grit particles against the work. Which means a sharper wheel, for longer. It will also help break down the wheel and make it act softer, exposing fresh sharp grit easier.

Wheel speed goes from 22m/s up to 26m/s (the wheels recommends either 40/50ms) depending on how much left on the wheel.
I’ve been changing the step over from 1.5mm to 2.5mm which is the max step over but seems to have little difference. The down feed works best on 0.01mm. I’ve tried taking hard cuts (0.03mm to promote brake-down but this immediately blunts the wheel.

After taking 0.05mm in in 0.01 cuts, the wheel starts to blunt, you can just hear it.
I can cut up to 0.15 at very best but then the finish is ridiculous and the cuts aren’t stable.

I’ve fucked around with dressing styles and one extreme to the other and finding the best, changed from single point to cluster, but no real break throughs.

I hate to blame my tools, but I reckon a better wheel exists for this. I think one issue is that the machine has 2400 RPM as we are on 50hz not 60hz. And all the wheels I have start at 3800 up to 5200Rpm. And these are pretty standard wheels that every tool room I’ve worked in has had these grades.

Do you have a powered table? If not, that is probably hurting you. I was at ~2400 RPM on the D-2 with about 6½"-7" wheel diameter. Table speed about 70-80 FPM, downfeed .001" at each crossfeed reversal. I also ran a lot more aggressive stepover - my machine can go up to ¼"max - I was probably nearer to 3/16" but didn't actually measure it. I think I would try a softer wheel. If you can hear the machine bogging you need to get the wheel to shed that dull grit - if you can't, you need a softer wheel.

You don't really need a fancy wheel for most work IMO unless you're doing production volumes where it can save a bit of time for each part and add up to a decent amount at the end. That D-2 job I just finished, on all the parts I took about a cumulative 3" of steel off with no issues. It's just a matter of finding the right combination of machine settings.

Yer it has powered feed, it’s a Jones and shipman 1400 it’s in amazing condition and grinds to 2 microns with ease. Probably one of the best condition J&S I’ve ever used.

I’m gonna drop the wheel to a H as an I hardness doesn’t exist apparently? And see what I get, because of the work we do I was hoping to dress the wheel after every 0.3mm or so and still be able to finish surfaces without re-dressing as much it takes time to clean between each face. Much like the stacks of H13 I used to grind.

I might be asking way too much of it all and won’t achieve what I’m looking for, but I highly doubt I’m working to reasonable results currently.

When I get some new wheels in I’ll post an update but that could be a few weeks or so. As there’s bigger fish to fry at the moment aha. Thanks for the help though bud.

First off, has it been mentioned, we can assume coolant, right?

Dunno about H softness if you are already under rpm with 50HZ input.
As noted above, i do fine (no pun intended) with J. You are not grinding hard steel, the wheel does not need to be that soft as the soft metal will pull grit out. Running lower surface speed already lowers the effective hardness of the wheel. A new full size J wheel running at 2400 is probably already acting like an I or H at 2900 +/-rpm unless the table is running too slowly. It acts softer as size decreases (SFM goes down) too. FWIW, I hardness used to be a common hardness here, though if not true in GB won't help you.

(Edited) _ was thinking my 10" wheel machine is 2850rpm, that yours was similar. Looked up specs for yours, 2570 rpm? so you are not that much lower. Nonetheless, a wheel at 2400 will already act a little softer than when run closer to max rating)

Is your current wheel loading up? or is it dulling? Or is it staying open but losing the dress?
Is it possible your wheel head is floating?

I have spend a few years of cumulative hours in front of surface grinders but my only "pro" time was nights in a friends tool building/sharpening shop 20 years ago. The rest of my experience is self absorbed. including a lot of advice on here. With that in mind, I tend to grind surfaces for finish with a "significant" downfeed and maybe .005" step over per table reversal. Wheel dress/sharpness lasts a very long time because most of the work is occurring at the edge of the wheel. Heat into the part stays low, too. For heavy stock removal, I'll go down as deep as .030 with a couple to .005" step over per reversal.

Per wheels - Michigan Buck made me aware of how much sharper Radiac brand wheels seem in general, at least compared with Norton. I mostly buy surplus NOS wheels, so use both. Recently found a crate of old Waltham 46J wheels. Would not necessarily recommend them, but for me the cheapness trumps spending for fancier, for most work. Esp since i shape a lot of wheels. Easier to think "might as well shape it, only $5, instead of "wow, this has been a nice wheel but it cost $30, do i shape it for a short job and put on the peg after or not?"

smt

Well, he's saying the wheel is dulling almost immediately, so he'd want the softer wheel so the dull grit would pull out... I'm just not entirely sure if that's what going on... That machine is using a 7"-8" wheel right? When you say you can hear the wheel dull, what exactly are you hearing? Are you hearing a slowdown of the spindle or heavy load on the motor or...? You're positive it's dulling and not loading? Not hearing that pulsating sound, right?

Yes too coolant, I requested it be reinstalled as the previous toolmaker doesn’t believe in coolant...

And yes it’s an 8inch when new but we use them down to 6 inch so we loose a lot of surface speed and are even running way down on a brand new wheel anyway, the longitudinal feed is powered but not measured, the valve can be part or fully open.

And I’m really sure it’s not a clogged/loaded wheel because it stays clean coloured but the sound it makes sounds like it’s a dull pushing sound rather then the clean cut sound. If you can imagine what a normal wheel sounds like before it needs dressing, it’s pretty much that but the wheel looks pretty clean coloured apart from a slight darkening which I quess is the binder being polished?

Well I would try to time the table and get an idea of table speed. You want to keep it moving pretty good if you're able. Here is a table running about 70 FPM to give some idea.

Brown & Sharpe Micromaster 818 Dial-a-Size at work. - YouTube

Slightly off-thread: is it worth putting a VFD onto the spindle motor of my J&S540, so that I can speed up the spindle as the grinding wheel gets smaller? The wheels start off at 200mm/8" but I often dress aggressively, so some are already down below 7" (175mm).

ballen said:

Slightly off-thread: is it worth putting a VFD onto the spindle motor of my J&S540, so that I can speed up the spindle as the grinding wheel gets smaller? The wheels start off at 200mm/8" but I often dress aggressively, so some are already down below 7" (175mm).

Click to expand...

I think so. I put one on my Micromaster. Not only to compensate for wheel wear but to slow the wheel down for grinding hardened stuff too. The D-2 job I just did took over an inch and a half off the wheel. Dressing the wheel every 1/16" of stock removal.

Bit of an update, we finally spoke to someone at Saint Gobain after we think they had an outbreak in the office.

The recommended we use a standard silicon carbide wheel, they sent us a Flexovit GC 60 J VX.

After a few test grinds, it finishes far better then anything else and also roughs a bit better too. Seems to like taking 0.005mm cuts with high step over, my machine maxes at 3mm. Coolant of course.

This is the same rate as before where I used to cut 0.01mm and 1.5mm step over but the wheel doesn’t glaze or load up as quick so less dresses required.

Just an update for anyone else’s future reference.

Thanks for the update! How does wheel wear and cost compare to previous wheels?