Is this a candidate for metal printing? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Thermite, it is tig only. It is not discussable for various reasons out of our control.

    We do have a resistance welder by the way.

    I would like to pierce and extrude the holes and electron-beam weld the rod in or even silver solder it. I think those would make a good connection, but...
    Last edited by David_M; 12-02-2018 at 05:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David_M View Post
    Thermite, it is tig only. It is not discussable for various reasons out of our control.

    We do have a resistance welder by the way.

    I would like to pierce and extrude the holes and electron-beam weld the rod in or even silver braze it. I think those would make a good connection, but...
    Hear yah.

    If it is a gas diffuser you must have, I'd still want it of industrial ceramic as a replaceable insert.

    So I could sell the inserts as maintenance-labour saving consumables, of course!

    "There are no 'problems'. Only 'opportunities'"

    Ain't yet Monday, is it?


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    Go to Forecast3D.com and create an account. You can upload your solid, and they'll give you a quote in 24 hours or less (usually). Then you'll know if it's printable, and how much it will cost. And they're quite good at what they do. Not cheap. But good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    Go to Forecast3D.com and create an account. You can upload your solid, and they'll give you a quote in 24 hours or less (usually). Then you'll know if it's printable, and how much it will cost. And they're quite good at what they do. Not cheap. But good.
    TMP, thanks!

    I am going to redraw most of it and get them something by the end of the day. Look forward to seeing their response.

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    The main problem is going to be that overhang, there is a maximum overhang angle that you can do (about 35 degrees). One option is to put some fill structure into the gap between the two parts and then mill it out later. Might also be able to print the part out on its side.

    DMLS is the printing technique you will want, they have stainless, titanium, cobalt-chrome, inconel, and a casting ish grade of aluminum that they can do. The material dosen't actually change the price that much, as machine time is most of the cost.

    Height is the expensive bit with DMLS prints, as adding powder and leveling it is a time consuming process. I got a small 1" dia by 1" tall impeller quoted in inconel, and it was about $380, I think stainless was around $320. I know someone who did a full volume print and it was around $18k. Though that was a few years ago now, prices have been going down a bit.

    It will be gas tight, though depending on your pressures; it might not be a bad idea to hot iso-statically press the part to get maximum density and strength.

    Hole sizes depending on if you used a high-resolution printer or a low res on. The high res printer could do down to 0.005" holes if I remember correctly, but the build volume was limited. Your features don't look too small they might be able to get printed on a standard printer.

    One thing to keep in mind if you have any gas fittings, some of the alloys (looking at you CoCr) are nearly impossible to tap well. So often it is better to print a gas fitting into your part if you can, or plan on welding one onto the part.

    The printing services will for sure be able to give you the best advice on how to proceed. But I don't really see that much that precludes that part getting printed other than the overhang.

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    Order placed with Forecast3D in cobalt-chrome.

    www.pbase.com/d_a_v_i_d/image/168497563/original
    www.pbase.com/d_a_v_i_d/image/168497564/original

    The parts above are about half of the original piece. I'm letting them do the hard stuff and I am going to make the dumb, simple part.

    I redrew them with the 35 degree overhang as mentioned by wrrocket.

    Forecast accepted them with no recommended changes.

    Thanks to all for the education,

    --david

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    The 35 degree angle is for unsupported structures. It can gap fill to some extent, so you can do arches and horizontal circular(ish) holes in your geometry. There is a bit to do to make it come out right though, with a maximum size of horizontal holes without support structure. Main bit is you can't just have geometry spring into existence if there was no structure below it. So you probably didn't actually need to do the angled peak on your internal geometry, but it looks like it will probably still work fine.

    But, if the part does what it was intended, it is good enough

    Just for some additional process info for you, the part itself they fly cut/surface grind a build plate to level it. Then the part gets printed (basically welded) on support structure directly to the build plate. They later have to Wire EDM or band saw it off of the build plate. Then they remove the marks the support structure left on the print.

    Having the printer do the work on the extremely difficult geometry and you do the simple stuff is a great way to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrrocket View Post
    The 35 degree angle is for unsupported structures. It can gap fill to some extent, so you can do arches and horizontal circular(ish) holes in your geometry. There is a bit to do to make it come out right though, with a maximum size of horizontal holes without support structure. Main bit is you can't just have geometry spring into existence if there was no structure below it. So you probably didn't actually need to do the angled peak on your internal geometry, but it looks like it will probably still work fine.

    But, if the part does what it was intended, it is good enough

    Just for some additional process info for you, the part itself they fly cut/surface grind a build plate to level it. Then the part gets printed (basically welded) on support structure directly to the build plate. They later have to Wire EDM or band saw it off of the build plate. Then they remove the marks the support structure left on the print.

    Having the printer do the work on the extremely difficult geometry and you do the simple stuff is a great way to go.
    WR, Thanks for the additional information. It is an interesting process as I learn more.

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    I guess I'll see how well the gas shielding works in a few weeks. Now I want something to make the pencil tig torch travel smoothly and repeatably. If it is a mechanical system, great.

    This is what I'm thinking:

    parts_1.png photo - David photos at pbase.com
    parts2.png photo - David photos at pbase.com

    Do you all think if I twisted on a small wheel (think 6" diameter steering wheel) that the travel rate would be somewhat regulated? I know there is something called isochronal error. How much can it be if someone is trying to be smooth?

    Here is a vid showing what I would like it to do:
    Last edited by David_M; 12-10-2018 at 08:17 PM.

  16. #31
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    I saw lots of internal curved tubes/conduits originally in the solid model and it seemed they needed to be accurate, rather than "present".

    Try to state expected or desired accuracies and quantities and material, in the future.
    It will help get better suggestions, imho.
    Something about use.
    "Noisemaker" or alarm vs gas diffuser, etc.

    The 3D printed part is likely expensive vs volume/mass/materials costs.
    A comment from You would help.
    Ballpark cost goals and final material would help.

    To me, lost-wax casting, with probably 3d printed wax core, seems to be (maybe) much cheaper, probably much better mechanically and gas tight.
    Jewelry guys seem to use it for excellent detail.
    Printing wax cores rather than parts is one of the areas where I see 3D printing working well.

    The part might maybe be split into 2, maybe even via a spiral cut vertically.
    Think slinky.
    This would allow access to cavities and internals, to some extent.
    Finishing or production via 3-4 axis milling or probing might be possible, either all or some cavities.

    Assy would be rotating the parts into each other, with final joining via brazing, silver soldering, or exotics.

    2.
    If the 3D printed part costs 1000$, as it might, or much more (less?), and hundreds per year are made, there should be a big business case to lower costs by 500$ or 50%.

    3.
    A specialty metal casting company might perhaps make it very cheaply, incremental.
    Maybe in 2-3 parts over specific molds, parts later joined, with your process of choice.
    Maybe centrifugal casting ?

    In lots of business cases I saw, and built some, it was possible to do anything 3-5x cheaper via "something different".
    It might be 3D printing in this case as well is different. Yes.
    I doubt it.
    3D is mostly good for slow, either small or very expensive specialty items like rocket nozzles that change and evolve and are made in 1-2 qty.

    I suspect lost-wax casting might drop costs 50%, and centrifugal casting drop them another 50%, per unit, on 100 units/year.
    The centrifugal casting might cost 50k in work / molds, once.
    Or not.

    And a changing or evolving part might be 1/3 of the total assy with say 3 molds.

    Putting out ideas, and stuff I saw, that I am not expert on.

    You can probably get the part done much better and much cheaper by paying an expert on results.
    The expert would probably charge 10k, and save you 500k on 1M$ or 1M on 3M$ /y costs.

  17. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Try to state expected or desired accuracies and quantities and material, in the future.
    Do you actually read the thread's before you blurt? F.Y.I

    Quote Originally Posted by David_M View Post
    Order placed with Forecast3D in cobalt-chrome.
    Only about a week, before you involved yourself.

  18. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    You don't want jets of shielding gas, you want a fog. Look at a typical TIG gas lens. What I've done in the past with excellent results is make a 5 sided box the shape required, fill that full of brass wool ( https://www.amazon.com/Brass-Wool-Sk.../dp/B01CTGGGIM ), and plumb a gas line or two to the box. Use a separate regulator to feed your back gas equipment, and it can work extremely well.
    Hear hear.
    I thought this was going to be some hypergolic rocket booster primary ignitor jet for Chlorine TriFluoride.
    Imagine my Disappointmen when its a tig trailing gas shield and old tuna can filled with steel wool or fine stainless mesh would work better.



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