16x54 Pratt and whitney model c
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  1. #1
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    Default 16x54 Pratt and whitney model c

    So Iím brand spanking new to this forum and Iím about to be the owner of this old girl and Im not exactly sure how I wanna run power to it. I was thinking of buying a static converter but not totally opposed to rotary even though they can get pretty pricey. Guy thatís getting it for me says the motor looks brand new and he believes its a 5hp. I have a Bridgeport that Iím running a variable speed drive on and I was thinking of going that route also. Any information about powering and parts would be greatly appreciated.

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    They came with 7 1/2 HP originally

    No parts except from a identical donor machine

    Manuals can be emailed if you want to private message me that address

    First 16" Model Cs came out in 1935 - and they built them at least up to 1965

    Plant they were built in demolished in mid nineties

    If the motor "looks brand new" its possible its a single phase

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cnumbers View Post
    So I’m brand spanking new to this forum and I’m about to be the owner of this old girl and Im not exactly sure how I wanna run power to it. I was thinking of buying a static converter but not totally opposed to rotary even though they can get pretty pricey. Guy that’s getting it for me says the motor looks brand new and he believes its a 5hp. I have a Bridgeport that I’m running a variable speed drive on and I was thinking of going that route also. Any information about powering and parts would be greatly appreciated.
    I'd rather have an STD than a static converter. OR a VFD. More fun getting it. Cheaper and easier to cure.

    7.5 to 10 HP idler, any common RPC starter/control, DIY off the PM "stickies" in that forum included.

    Soon done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I'd rather have an STD than a static converter. OR a VFD. More fun getting it. Cheaper and easier to cure.
    -Typical Thermic response.

    Assuming the "brand new" motor is in fact still 3-phase, generally speaking a VFD is the ideal choice. Not as cheap as a static, easier to use than a rotary (no need for the extra step of "starting" the idler) and offers options like variable speed and fast braking (assuming the machine doesn't have a clutch/brake.)

    I have VFDs on nine of my machines, and that'll probably be ten by midsummer. I run one on a rotary, and it works fine, but I bought that during very tight economic times.

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    -Typical Thermic response.

    Assuming the "brand new" motor is in fact still 3-phase, generally speaking a VFD is the ideal choice. Not as cheap as a static, easier to use than a rotary (no need for the extra step of "starting" the idler) and offers options like variable speed and fast braking (assuming the machine doesn't have a clutch/brake.)

    I have VFDs on nine of my machines, and that'll probably be ten by midsummer. I run one on a rotary, and it works fine, but I bought that during very tight economic times.

    Doc.
    I'm not "opposed to" solid-state conversion. I have a ten HP Phase-Perfect as well as an RPC. Even a 3-Phase-capable diesel gen set.

    What I am "opposed to" is wasting TIME.. even more than wasting MONEY.

    With either/any of those, ANY 3-Phase machine arriving under my roof only needs fitted with a stout SO cord and Hubbell twist-lock.

    DONE.

    As I cannot use even TWO machines at the same time. I have no paid-for VFD's sitting idle.

    Also ZERO messing with on-machine controls as have to be bypassed ELSE integrated into EACH of your nine, soon to be ten, machine-tools.

    VFD's require direct connection to their load-motor. You've already done "many". How well-versed in that is the OP? Learning curves are not free. They involve downtime as well as money.

    Address the cheap solutions first with the least-cost, least "learn new things" approach?

    Yah have more money to do OTHER stuff with that needs it.

    And more TIME to chase those things.

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    I can so without any Sexually Transmitted Disease, thankyou

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    Quote Originally Posted by Limy Sami View Post
    I can so without any Sexually Transmitted Disease, thankyou
    I wasn't meaning to even OFFER to get involved, actually.



    But think it through:

    "Smallholder" ends up with typically a lathe and a mill. Typically 3-Phase.

    Might add a bandsaw, rebuild a power hacksaw, add a drillpress. 3-Phase for the better ones, single phase for the lightweights.

    ONE RPC (or Phase-Perfect) serves the entire lot. No messing about with re-wiring of controls. Fewer barriers to acquisition or trading up, down, or laterally.

    "Slippery slope" for VFD's is one per machine.

    Before yah know it, ye've bought "many" - most of them wanting some jiggery-pokery to integrate on-machine controls that are where they are meant to be into a VFD's "remote" interface.

    A "revenue" shop - even a small one - might easily justify that - especially if a two or more headcount operation able to run more than one machine at a time.

    But "revenue" shops are also not well-served with OLD Old iron to begin with.

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    Default Pratt and Whitney 16x54

    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    They came with 7 1/2 HP originally

    No parts except from a identical donor machine

    Manuals can be emailed if you want to private message me that address

    First 16" Model Cs came out in 1935 - and they built them at least up to 1965

    Plant they were built in demolished in mid nineties

    If the motor "looks brand new" its possible its a single phase
    [email protected]

    It would be nice to have a serial number for ya but guy couldnít seem to find it. I was wondering exactly what kind of footprint itís gonna have in my shop. I know itís pretty big but was wondering exactly how long and how heavy. I was gonna move it with excavator when I get it

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    That link to a manual for this thing would be amazing. [email protected]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cnumbers View Post
    That link to a manual for this thing would be amazing. [email protected]

    Not quite 11 MB headed your way (it would be nice to have an acknowledgement on this when you get to it - that way I will know it got there)

    Weight and size guesses

    About 5200 Lbs

    About 11 feet long

    but guy couldn’t seem to find it
    On a tag riveted to face of bed casting - sort of below lead screw, favoring tail stock end - usually glopped up with paint. Bronze/brass as in photo earlier, light alloy later

    Tag is similar to this Model B tag

    b-serial-tag.jpg
    Last edited by johnoder; 02-18-2020 at 09:24 AM.

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    What I am "opposed to" is wasting TIME.. even more than wasting MONEY. With either/any of those, ANY 3-Phase machine arriving under my roof only needs fitted with a stout SO cord and Hubbell twist-lock. DONE.
    -Yessir. But not everyone has a $3,000 to $6,000 Phase Perfect, nor needs one.

    While I agree with you on the static converter, I disagree on the VFD, especially on a lathe. All my lathes have a VFD, and in my opinion they're worth every penny, primarily for the fine speed control.

    In this case, the OP needs good information- that is, which option may suit him, his setup and his budget correctly. And not an ill-informed, blanket "I'd rather than an STD than a VFD" statement.

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    -Yessir. But not everyone has a $3,000 to $6,000 Phase Perfect, nor needs one.

    While I agree with you on the static converter, I disagree on the VFD, especially on a lathe. All my lathes have a VFD, and in my opinion they're worth every penny, primarily for the fine speed control.

    In this case, the OP needs good information- that is, which option may suit him, his setup and his budget correctly. And not an ill-informed, blanket "I'd rather than an STD than a VFD" statement.

    Doc.
    Well it was at least a SHORTER statement than your longer-winded mis-quote followed by bad advice. Static converter is not a VFD.



    What he NEEDS, first lathe, no familiarity, is a simple RPC that needs no delving into the wiring or controls of his new-to-him P&W lathe. Note that I DO harbour an RPC as well as a Phase-Perfect. I didn't scrap all my VFD because I do not understand them. I scrapped them because I understand their nuisance arses all TOO WELL.

    A VFD requires he dig in, wire directly to the motor, abandon, duplicate, or tediously integrate on-machine controls, get used to a new way of life as to starting, stopping, setting speed, doing braking and reversing. Are your ones even in NEMA ONE housings? NEMA 4X? Or flimsy plastic with unprotected fans?

    Next up is to expect VFD long-term damage to any pre "Inverter Duty" era AC motor. Read nearly ALL of them on our "Old Iron". All your lathes have newer Inverter duty motors? Good for you. I can't afford that. Phase-Perfect was an economy move, not a splurge.

    Third - "RTFM", find every one of your VFD is "owed" new capacitors 7, 9, at most 12 years out. Not my "opinion". The VFD MAKER sez so. Even the P-P wants new caps every THREE years. "RTFM" again. I did.

    RPC dasn't give a damn, first 20 years or so, and I'm 75 this year so it may as well be "never".

    All an RPC requires is appropriate code-compliant breakers, wiring, disconnect - same as a VFD, P-P or commercial mains 3-Phase or even single-phase.

    Then one or more Hubbell plugs & socket, SO cord ... to the lathe's OEM disconnect/starter - wotever.

    At which point all the EXISTING controls, work light, coolant pump as well as the final-drive motor work just as the factory shipped it all.

    Initial cost is about the same as the FIRST VFD, but installation and commissioning time and labour is way less. No muscle-memory re-training, either, if he is accustomed to any "industrial grade" lathe and their resonably common controls. Or even a South Bent.

    SECOND and subsequent 3-Phase machine use the same RPC unless he's twins, triplets, or a circus juggler as can run two or more machines at once.

    "All my lathes have VFD" means you ARE a commercial "revenue" shop, DO have staff and DO have to run more than one machine at a time.

    That justify's the greater cumulative spend on multiple VFD versus a net-cheaper shared RPC or shared Phase-Perfect for YOU.

    Good on yah. Somebody has to pay for our Social Security "transfer payments", and I thank you for that.

    But that isn't his situation nor that of other one-man shops, revenue or otherwise.

    Four motors on ONE mill, here. Everything HERE has two motors, minimum. I'd need as many as EIGHT VFD, and every one of them would be slowly destroying an old motor that would eventually need replaced.

    Why would I want to do THAT when an RPC is clean Sine-Wave inherently and my P-P has been given a supplementary filter to make it just as clean if it wasn't already - or even starts to fail its filter caps?

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    That's quite a lot of words. Have you convinced yourself how right you are, yet?

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    That's quite a lot of words. Have you convinced yourself how right you are, yet?

    Doc.
    Why would I when I do not HAVE to?

    What I SHOULD do is ask what brand of VFD you are pissing away money on and buy stock in that company.

    Getting to be where those "consumer" choices are buying rather a lot of nice things, here.

    Meanwhile, y'all kindly just keep putting fuel into yer motorcars and burning nat gas. I rather LIKE steak and lobstah!


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    Meanwhile, y'all kindly just keep putting fuel into yer motorcars and burning nat gas. I rather LIKE steak and lobstah!
    -And just what in the hillbilly hell does that have to do with the OP's decision about how to power a lathe?

    Originally Posted by thermite
    -Oh, right. Nothing whatsoever.

    To the OP: As John noted, it's worth checking to see if the motor is, in fact, still a 3-phase. If it's not, all this bluster is irrelevant.

    And, of course, we need pictures.

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    -And just what in the hillbilly hell
    Well - points, if yah can trade 'em for air-miles, 'coz yah sure got THAT part right, given it was "slick Willie" territory, wasn' it?



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