18 in American High Duty - interesting chuck

I picked up a really neat 18 in American Lathe, its a very old cone head. It has an interesting 16inch 4-jaw chuck on it. The interesting part is you can select between independent and scroll with a wrench from the front face or the side. Maybe its not all that uncommon, but I never saw anything like it in a 4 jaw, thought it would be interesting to share. Its all rusty, but looks like it will clean up really well seen in the last picture.

Thanks for posting.
Sorry, cant understand how it works! Could you post more photos and maybe an explanation?
Regards, fusker

There's some pictures of a scroll/independent chuck (3 jaw) in this thread:

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...huck-independent-jaws-359864/?highlight=chuck

I always wanted to try one of these to see if it was gimmicky. Seems like if they worked well we would see more of them, and newer versions.

I believe the OP has what is known as a "Combination Chuck". These were built by Oneida or Westcott and were fairly common ages ago. My guess is that the combination chucks were supposed to allow a lathe operator to have one chuck that could serve as both a 'universal' or 'scroll' chuck and, could also serve as an 'independent' chuck'. The 'scroll chuck' is, at least in theory, self-centering. In actuality, a scroll type chuck will rarely run true, and at best within a couple of thousandths. This was addressed in later years by the 'Set True' type of chuck back plate, which lets a scroll chuck be adjusted so a job runs true. The 'independent' chuck has the ability to chuck odd shapes of work as well as to be adjusted so the work runs dead true (concentric with the centerline of the spindle).

Oneida, or Westcott, was trying to capture the best of both types of chuck in one single chuck. The combination chuck went one better on the 'Set Tru' types, as it allows the individual jaws to be adjusted to hold a particular size/shape of work and the job can then be centered. Once this is done, if multiple jobs of the same shape need to be run, they will (at least in theory) run true as well.

The idea of the combination chuck is a good one in theory. How well these chucks actually perform in terms of chucking multiple jobs with repeat accuracy is something I wonder about. I have a 4-jaw Oneida chuck on my LeBlond lathe. The body casting could have been used to make a 'combination' chuck, but was built as a basic 'independent' 4 jaw chuck. On the face of the chuck body, the word "special" is stamped. My guess is Oneida was probably making more of the combination chucks on that size body casting, so a plain 4 jaw chuck was 'special'. I also have a "Westcott" S-shaped heavy adjustable wrench hanging in my shop. I bought it as new-old-stock when I was a kid of about 12 (58 years ago). The name "Westcott" is forged into the handle of the wrench, but the maker's name is "Oneida Chuck Company".

Hi fusker, good question. These two pictures and hopefully this short description helps. The jaws screw into a "sled" and operate as a standard independent jaw would. All four "sleds" are then coupled with gearing which is operated by turning the square key drive through the front face of the chuck, hopefully you can see the movement of the sleds in this pictures below.

I have newer versions by Cushman (Independent/universal 4 jaw chuck) Also have the same in 3 jaw. In addition I have both by an Italian (I think) company. I check the brand name. Both have the Universal adjustment the same as most universal 3 jaw chucks and use bevel gear to turn the scroll. One drawback is they are very heavy.

Westcott 3 - jaw version:

Ha! Hey Joe I need that wrench
John

One thought. If you were doing production off center faceplate type work, the 4 jaw part could be adjusted to offset the part from the center of the spindle, and you could use the scroll to take parts in and out quickly. The slots around the periphery of the chuck could be places to mount balance weights to minimize vibration.

Something akin to this:

My Hendy 14 x 8 tiebar from 1921 came with a westcott

wheels17 said:

One thought. If you were doing production off center faceplate type work, the 4 jaw part could be adjusted to offset the part from the center of the spindle, and you could use the scroll to take parts in and out quickly. The slots around the periphery of the chuck could be places to mount balance weights to minimize vibration.

Something akin to this:
View attachment 308123

Click to expand...

That's the theory wheels - but back in the day I found they never worked for me - nor anybody else in the shop

I do have a few 4 jaw chucks with Tee slots. If I do use them I usually put a clamp to hold the item against the chuck. If it was quite off center I added weight on the stud under the clamp. As I mentioned I do have a few of the universal/independent chucks and did have a Westcott but it was sold with an old lathe. I do have a few old universal/independent 3 jaw chucks (one is 18") that uses a screw and ring gear. A lever disengages the gears on the screws connected to the jaws from the ring gear so it's independent, when engaged the chuck is universal. I don't use them much, 2 are on old dividing heads. The newer type by Cushman and Italian company work OK but I find that after closing the jaws with the scroll then adjusting with the screw the jaws are so tight from the pressure exerted by the screw that opening the jaws with the scroll is very difficult. In most cases the chuck wrench is not long enough to open the jaws with the scroll. The Cushman has a detente on the jaw screws so that there is a definite bump when rotating the jaw screw. Might be for presetting the jaws so it can be used as a scroll chuck. Not using those chucks much I don't recall if the detente is per turn or fractional turns.

marka12161 said:

My Hendy 14 x 8 tiebar from 1921 came with a westcott

View attachment 308129

Click to expand...

Well it looks like these combination chucks are pretty common, and sounds like maybe not the best chuck. As with most things that try to do too much and don't do anything well. Still pretty cool chuck though. Will see how it works in holding material when I get the motor and flat belt connected back up to the lathe. Thanks for all the info and thoughts everyone !

At Tuckahoe we have a couple of Wescott chucks. One thing I find really annoying is that you adjust the scroll from the front of the chuck: really a great idea when you are chucking something relatively large.

Yes, they are something that looks cool, but not too practical.

Paolo

My universal/independent chucks being of a newer vintage don't have the universal adjuster open to the face of the chuck, the female square opening is the same as the independent screw opening and located on the OD similar to the typical universal 3 jaw chucks. But as mentioned it has limited practical use. My Chushman works well as a 4 jaw chuck but is quite a bit heavier than the same size independent only chuck so when a typical 4 jaw chuck is required I will select the independent only version. Sometimes I will select the combination model when closing the 4 jaws in one operation is desirable then with an indicator (if required) adjust the jaw to get concentricity. Fortunately I was able to find them at a very cheap price and why I have a few of them. I would like to find the 6 jaw version. They had one where my father worked and it was quite useful. I did see them listed in an MSC catalog made by Rohm but the price was more than I could afford or willing to pay!

Froneck said:

My universal/independent chucks being of a newer vintage don't have the universal adjuster open to the face of the chuck, the female square opening is the same as the independent screw opening and located on the OD similar to the typical universal 3 jaw chucks. But as mentioned it has limited practical use. My Chushman works well as a 4 jaw chuck but is quite a bit heavier than the same size independent only chuck so when a typical 4 jaw chuck is required I will select the independent only version. Sometimes I will select the combination model when closing the 4 jaws in one operation is desirable then with an indicator (if required) adjust the jaw to get concentricity. Fortunately I was able to find them at a very cheap price and why I have a few of them. I would like to find the 6 jaw version. They had one where my father worked and it was quite useful. I did see them listed in an MSC catalog made by Rohm but the price was more than I could afford or willing to pay!

Click to expand...

There have been PM threads covering smaller, newer, "good" precision ones that the owners appreciated as useful. Think multiple items, same irregularity repeating.

I just keep common 5C and ER-40 plate mount or collet blocks that can be gripped in a 4-J at a chosen offset. That only covers round, hex, & c items, bare 4-J has to do the rest "the tedious way", but BFD.

Shunk had really good "Westcott pattern" ones - probably at even higher prices than Rohm. Didn't see then, last time I looked.

Seems as if adjustable top-jaws on power chuck bodies now do what needs doing better and faster?

CNC spindles don't have TIME for a lot of manual messing about, and CNC spindles are what pays the bills - chuck-maker or end-luser alike.

My friend has an 8" Wescott, but strangely with no face adjuster and no gear teeth either. Just some holes on the back of the scroll you could use a pin spanner in. It's... not very good lol.

ClappedOutBport said:

My friend has an 8" Wescott, but strangely with no face adjuster and no gear teeth either. Just some holes on the back of the scroll you could use a pin spanner in. It's... not very good lol.

Click to expand...

"Long ago.." I researched the history of "the chuck", as faceplates with all manner of stuff hang on them HAD been "the way" if work didn't go up "between centers".

One of the oddities was that several came from the same town or adjacent towns in New England, and.. the inventor's kids and grandkids had more than once married the offspring of their business competitor!

"Get a grip" indeed! ISTR Cushman ended-up owning Skinner & Horton, and probably "not only" as manual chucks faded away to power workholding.

I mean.. build a GOOD manual 4-jaw?

Next time it needs replaced might be over 50 years out?

Kinda hard to keep the doors open after everybody already HAS one!