1898 Hendey 14x6 restoration

I've been looking for an early Hendey for quite some time. You don't find too many of them in my area. I missed a chance at one last year and when an even earlier one appeared on CL this year, I jumped. I paid quite a bit for it ($700 all in) but it didn't cost me much to get it. It was 90 miles away and I was able to get it in two trips in my mini-van. My truck was broken and I couldn't get a trailer so I decided to make two trips in the van, taking the transmission, motor mount, legs, steady rest and tail stock in the first trip and the bed and head stock in the second. With the seats out of the van and some plywood in the bottom, it worked out much better than I would have thought. Getting the bed in was pretty easy. The lathe hung from an engine hoist and I backed the van up swallowing the lathe. There were some 'fun' moments as we titled the hoist to get the lathe further back but it worked out just fine. Getting it back out took more effort. Hendeyman suggested I drag it to the edge, put the front legs on, drag it some more and put the back legs on. That's pretty much what I did. I have a big beam in the middle of my shop and I have a chain hoist hanging from it. With supports on either side it can handle a lot of weight. I used it to pull the lathe out of the van. I did have to build a strong box to hold it at the end because the back door of the van kept the hoist too far from the COG of the lathe.

Here she is in the shop. The bull gear (face gear) has 16 damaged or missing teeth so it is an issue. She's 117 years old so there is some wear in the usual places. As I peel of the thick layers of grease and grime a good looking lathe is revealed. The quick change gear box looks great and the back gears look fine as well. I'm going to start with the transmission, then the transmission and motor mount. After those are done I'll strip the lathe down to the bed and start cleaning. I was going to paint her the standard machine gray as everything in my shop wears those colors, but after removing the grime I could see a stunning red brown color that she's been wearing for quite some time (it is under the external transmission/motor mount that was added in 1941). It seems that this could well be the original color. Even if it isn't the original color it has likely been on there for the last 75 years so I'm going to stay with that color. Transmission, motor and mount will be black.

The lathe came with a 4 speed transmission. It is a Western MFG 8100B. I searched around on the web and was able to find out that Midwest Tool and Gear bought the rights to make Western MFG products when Western closed. I sent Midwest an email about the transmission with the serial number and got a very prompt reply. The transmission was made in 1941 and they still have parts. I tore it down and found it to be in great shape. I ordered new gaskets and oil seals. I got it cleaned and painted and when the parts get here I'll put it back together.
Today I tore the transmission/motor mount down, scraped off the grime, cleaned, media-blasted, etched, primed and painted. I've still got to clean the post and get things bolted back together but it was a nice bit of progress and always great to see things shiny again. The castings for the mount are really substantial. I'm impressed with the quality of the mounting system. While media blasting I noticed some part numbers in the casting that looked almost identical to the numbers cast into the transmission housing. I'm wondering if Western MFG also made the mount system. I'm going to send an email next week and see if that is the case.

Very nice find. I'll be following along.

Glenn

Its not a Model T... though I don't know what it is. We could use a few more brass car guys here.

Nice pre tie bar Hendey you have there. What are the dimensions of the bull gear?

99Panhard said:

Its not a Model T... though I don't know what it is. We could use a few more brass car guys here.

Click to expand...

Correct, it is a 1913 Metz Model 22 Roadster. I bought the car as a basket case and I've spent the last 3+ years finding or fabricating the missing parts. The lathe is very much part of the plan to help finish the car. I have 90% of the woodwork completed and a lot of the major components located. This seems like the perfect forum for a brass car guy to hang out in and I'm happy to be here.

I deleted my earlier post as it seemed out of place. Nice lathe & great use of what transport you have. The old car at first looked like a model T by the shape of the floor board to me, I am not familiar with a Metz, but will be before the night is over.

Cheers
Warren

Warren said:

I deleted my earlier post as it seemed out of place. Nice lathe & great use of what transport you have. The old car at first looked like a model T by the shape of the floor board to me, I am not familiar with a Metz, but will be before the night is over.

Cheers
Warren

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Not out of place at all. Your guess of a Model T is a very good one. As you'll find tonight, the Metz had a four cylinder engine that was as close to a knockoff of the Model T engine as you could get. The cylinder head, pistons, valves, intake and exhaust manifolds will (with some finagling)interchange. The Metz is not well known and when people ask about it, I usually just say "It's like a Model T". There isn't an abundance of space in the shop so she'll probably be seen in future photos.

stevewatr said:

Nice pre tie bar Hendey you have there. What are the dimensions of the bull gear?

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Hey Steve. The bull gear is about 29" in circumference which would give it a diameter of about 9.25"
Many thanks for posting all your videos on YouTube. One night I think I watched about every one of the Hendey videos!! I'm also looking at an Index 745 mill which I think is pretty much the same as the one you have. Not sure if I'm going to pull the trigger on that though as money is tight and there are many projects that need to be done. Maybe next year.

RCPDesigns said:

Hey Steve. The bull gear is about 29" in circumference which would give it a diameter of about 9.25"
Many thanks for posting all your videos on YouTube. One night I think I watched about every one of the Hendey videos!! I'm also looking at an Index 745 mill which I think is pretty much the same as the one you have. Not sure if I'm going to pull the trigger on that though as money is tight and there are many projects that need to be done. Maybe next year.

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Thanks for watching my videos. Your Hendey reminds me of my Vernon lathe. I'm not home this weekend but I'll check the dimensions on the gear I have from a 16" south bend. It's a long shot but no harm in checking.

RCPDesigns said:

Correct, it is a 1913 Metz Model 22 Roadster. I bought the car as a basket case and I've spent the last 3+ years finding or fabricating the missing parts. The lathe is very much part of the plan to help finish the car. I have 90% of the woodwork completed and a lot of the major components located. This seems like the perfect forum for a brass car guy to hang out in and I'm happy to be here.

Click to expand...

I expect I've read some of your posts on the AACA forum. I am also well into a brass car rebuild and I've found the collective knowledge here a great deal more valuable than the usual "car sites." As to your gear... do you know the DP (Diametrical Pitch)? With the tooth count and the diameter its easily figured out. It may not be all that straight forward though. If Hendeyman has the original drawings they would be well worth getting.

Here's my brass car thread:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/my-new-project-1910-mitchell-229890/

You will also want to search this site for Terry Harper's Wisconsin Engine project.
If I can be of any help, just PM me.

Math for determining Diametral Pitch:

Measure OD

Count teeth, add TWO to that count

Divide sum by OD

Example:

32 teeth, 2.125" OD

34 divided by 2.125 = 16 DP

ON EDIT:

The bull gear is about 29" in circumference which would give it a diameter of about 9.25"

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Just right for 8 DP and 72 teeth. 74 divided by 9.250 = 8

johnoder said:

Math for determining Diametral Pitch:

Measure OD

Count teeth, add TWO to that count

Divide sum by OD

Example:

32 teeth, 2.125" OD

34 divided by 2.125 = 16 DP

Click to expand...

Thanks John. I'll give it a try.

Steve.

99Panhard said:

I expect I've read some of your posts on the AACA forum. I am also well into a brass car rebuild and I've found the collective knowledge here a great deal more valuable than the usual "car sites." As to your gear... do you know the DP (Diametrical Pitch)? With the tooth count and the diameter its easily figured out. It may not be all that straight forward though. If Hendeyman has the original drawings they would be well worth getting.

Here's my brass car thread:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/my-new-project-1910-mitchell-229890/

You will also want to search this site for Terry Harper's Wisconsin Engine project.
If I can be of any help, just PM me.

Click to expand...

The 1910 Mitchell is an awesome project. I look forward to following your thread.
Hendeyman has the drawings to the bull gear and has offered to make one if needed. James was a huge help in making the decision to get the lathe. It was only because of him, John, Joe, yourself and the other helpful members of this forum that I decided to take on the project. It gave me the confidence to know I could get the project completed.

johnoder said:

Math for determining Diametral Pitch:

Measure OD

Count teeth, add TWO to that count

Divide sum by OD

Example:

32 teeth, 2.125" OD

34 divided by 2.125 = 16 DP

ON EDIT:



Just right for 8 DP and 72 teeth. 74 divided by 9.250 = 8

Click to expand...

I check the measurements again.

The outer most circumference of the bull gear is 27.625"
I counted the teeth (or what would be teeth in some cases) and found 85. I checked this three times and marked every ten. So I'm sure of this number.
With a circumference of 27.625" the diameter is 8.7933"
87/8.7933=9.89
Not sure what that all means and I'm not 100% sure of the circumference as my technique for measuring is not that accurate. I took a piece of string and wrapped it around the gear on the tops of the teeth and then measured the length of string. I'm not sure of the total error on that but it (obviously) can't be 100% accurate (heck, some of the teeth are not even there!!).

85 teeth and 10 DP will have an OD of 8.7 (and a pitch diameter of 8.500")

Backing up from there, 87 divided by 8.7 = 10 DP

10 DP will have a circular pitch of Pi/10 = about .315

So, about 5/16 from a point on one tooth to the same point on a neighboring tooth.

RCPDesigns said:

I check the measurements again.

The outer most circumference of the bull gear is 27.625"
I counted the teeth (or what would be teeth in some cases) and found 85. I checked this three times and marked every ten. So I'm sure of this number.
With a circumference of 27.625" the diameter is 8.7933"
87/8.7933=9.89
Not sure what that all means and I'm not 100% sure of the circumference as my technique for measuring is not that accurate. I took a piece of string and wrapped it around the gear on the tops of the teeth and then measured the length of string. I'm not sure of the total error on that but it (obviously) can't be 100% accurate (heck, some of the teeth are not even there!!).

Click to expand...

johnoder said:

85 teeth and 10 DP will have an OD of 8.7 (and a pitch diameter of 8.500")

Backing up from there, 87 divided by 8.7 = 10 DP

10 DP will have a circular pitch of Pi/10 = about .315

So, about 5/16 from a point on one tooth to the same point on a neighboring tooth.

Click to expand...

Yes, I went out to the shop and verified it is indeed 5/16" from a point on one tooth to the same point on a neighboring tooth. It also appears that top of each tooth is about 1/16" wide.

That gear is in really bad shape so I think your best bet is to have Hendeyman make one. The likelihood of finding one, or a parts machine or one from another lathe that fits is about nil and I know James will be more than fair on the price. For what it's worth, I just checked a junk lathe I have to see how close the gear was but its not even the same DP. Will the bull gear from a Hendey tie bar lathe fit? Hendeyman could answer that but generally we've seen very few of the pre-tie bar lathes so if it doesn't, there is really little choice. You'll need the back gears to turn cast iron and I can say from experience that Brass Car work includes quite a bit of cast iron turning.

All that said, Hendey lathes are very robust, damn near the Locomobile of American lathes. Even with the cost of repairs you could spend a heck of a lot more on a relative piece of junk... and when you get this one tooled up and running you will be able to handle about 95% of the work an early car will generate. Remember, the cars were built with machines like that. I've just finished 6 months of reassembling a milling machine in order to get on with my car work. It was an ordeal, but its a fantastic revelation when you start making your own parts on real machines. The endless "where do I get parts" questions rapidly become irrelevant.

I'll share a car story... Many years ago I was at a cars show at the Lars andersen Museum in Brookline Mass. One car there was a 1908 Woolsey-Siddley. The owner was a Mr. Frank Johnson, well known for his ability to rebuild magnetos and, at the time, in his late 80s. The car was being driven by his son-in-law and Mr. Johnson sat in the back and entertained those of us who wanted to talk to him. I was standing there with a good friend and he was telling us how he tuned S.F. Edges car for the 1903 Gorden Bennet race... he was only about 15 at the time and we asked how he got that job... "because no one older knew how to do it" was his answer.
As we were leaving, a woman admiring his car, asked "where ever do you get parts for it"... he answered, "from the original source madam, a drill press and a lathe."

99Panhard said:

It was an ordeal, but its a fantastic revelation when you start making your own parts on real machines. The endless "where do I get parts" questions rapidly become irrelevant.

As we were leaving, a woman admiring his car, asked "where ever do you get parts for it"... he answered, "from the original source madam, a drill press and a lathe."

Click to expand...

It took me a little while to really get this concept but now that I do, I think it is what I like best about restoring the old cars. I looked at a project car awhile back and thought to myself that it was a shame it was so complete....