1943 Brown and Sharpe No. 13 Universal and Tool Grinder - Table Way Lube Drainage(?)
Close
Login to Your Account
Likes Likes:  0
Results 1 to 10 of 10
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Oakville, Ontario
    Posts
    120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    13

    Default 1943 Brown and Sharpe No. 13 Universal and Tool Grinder - Table Way Lube Drainage(?)

    While cleaning up an older type (circa 1943) oil-cup-style lubricated No. 13 Universal, I've encountered a curious difference in the behavior between the oil-roller reservoirs on the left side of the machine vs the right side.

    I am under the impression that one lubricates the table ways by depositing way oil at four locations: front left, rear left, front right, rear right.

    end-reservoirs-annotated.jpg
    (right side shown below - hard to read, but it says "Deposit oil here", then arrows show the oil flowing toward the reservoirs 1/3 the way from the end of the table)

    This oil flows along the little troughs and down into each reservoir where rollers affixed to a pin (like a pogo stick) sits atop a spring down in a hole at the bottom of the reservoir. These reservoirs hold some amount of oil which the spring-loaded rollers bathe in and transfer to the table as it passes over top.

    The trouble it seems is that the drilled hole in each of the reservoirs on the right side are not blind - When I put liquid in there, it drains away down into the casting. On the left side, it behaves as I would expect and the oil does not drain. It stays put and can be filled to whatever level I require.


    img_6952.jpg
    Left Side (no drainage - expected behavior?)


    img_6951.jpg
    Right Side (drains - not what I expected.)

    The reserviors on the left fill and never drain meaning they lubricate indefinitely but accumulate debris. On the right side, the reservoirs drain constantly meaning I must keep replenishing (possibly creating a huge mess in the process) but they stay clean.

    Does anyone know which way these reservoirs should operate? Should they retain the oil indefinitely, or should they drain? Are yours asymmetric like mine?

    img_6955.jpg
    Why does this drilled hole go through the casting?


    UPDATE 1: It seems the right-rear hole is much less leaky when I put way oil in. WD40 just drains out, but way oil is retained seemingly indefinitely. Also, solvents do not penetrate the left-side reservoirs (tested to see if they were blocked), so it's only the right-front hole that leaks. With this knowledge, I am going to make the assumption that they should all be blind and simply patch the very bottom of the leaking hole with the tiniest bit of oil-resistant gasket material. Problem, I think, solved.

    UPDATE 2: Got inside the casting with a borescope by going through the on/off motor switch. Using a short length of tig filler rod, I located the hole down from the reservoir into the space of the casting. I put the screw back and placed the rod in the center of that, and can plainly see the drill either penetrated through the side of the casting, or this is somehow intentional. I find it being intentional however hard to believe since the spring seems as though it could fall right out of that hole.

    borescope_photo_front_right_reservoir.jpg

    Would still like some opions - I can't compare this reservoir with the others - I tried comparing to the one at the rear, but saw no holes on cursory inspection.
    Last edited by torinwalker; 10-22-2020 at 07:24 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    1,467
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    965
    Likes (Received)
    518

    Default

    Later No 13's, 1950's, used a pump to automatically lube ways.

    Your reservior are essentially traps. It would require lifting the table periodically to clean them out. As assuming not a high use item, maybe once every couple of years, unless a particularly dirty gritty job.

    By the way these are designed, they should not accumulate grit. Either the table always covers ways, wiper, etc.

    Not sure who, how or why those passages got drilled through. Guessing its not drilled through in a convenient area to serve as a drain. If that's correct, then hammer a brass dowel down below spring, or something along that line.

    As a possiblity, you might consider modifying though. External, easy to access. Maybe drill and tap for pipe plugs. Put the holes on the side of machine, at bottom of the lube wheel pockets. You could drain them periodically. Perhaps a second hole above it for correct lube height.

    It has been my intention on a rotary surface grinder. Note the 3 pockets on one side. A drain hole on the bottom would be easier than lifting the top off.

    21.jpg

    Another possibility, Maybe drill down through the table, in the center over both ways. Nice fill caps or plugs. You could shoot some lube in from the top side of ways in the center, between pockets.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Oakville, Ontario
    Posts
    120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    13

    Default

    I don't believe they are traps - they are baths - see the wheels sitting on the ways? The wheels ride on a thin axle that goes through the pin. The pin rides up and down in those drilled holes at the bottom of the wells on a shallow (3/4" long) spring causing it to push upward against the ways on the table as it travels left/right. The wheels dip into the bath as they rotate, transferring the oil to the sliding surfaces.

    Unless someone with here the same variant of #13 can confirm they are weep holes and drain oil as mine does, I must assume this hole was drilled thorough accidentally - especially since the other three do not drain oil.

    As for dirty, yes, they are protected by the table casting but EVERYTHING in a grinding environment gets covered with dirt, even when it's hidden from above. Case in point, those areas at the end of the table I identified as deposit locations for way oil are the most exposed and are uncovered at the furthest ends of travel so will indeed accumulate grinding dust then carry it down to the reservoirs whenever oil is topped up. While gravity will cause the debris to sink to the bottom, the debris could theoretically float in the bath for a while and transfer to the sliding ways if one topped up then immediately started grinding.

    If the same someone with an identical (~1943 with the double-doors) variant of #13 could read or photo the excerpt from his manual the section on how to lubricate the table ways, it would go a long way to proving my hypothesis.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Oakville, Ontario
    Posts
    120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    13

    Default

    The exposed spring is located inside close to the wall, so it was tough seeing around in there. I removed the two switch faceplates so I could get in there with a better angle and shine a light directly at it, then took some shots with a mirror/flashlight/camera.

    The machine
    img_6950.jpg

    The right-side reservoirs rear and front with rollers on their pins and springs nearby which hopefully paint a picture of how this works
    img_6951.jpg

    In this first shot, you're seeing the right side of the machine inside the casting where the front reservoir is drilled for that pin hole. I put the spring down in there so you can see the relation:

    img_6965.jpg
    Looking at the front-right inside the casting with a mirror (imagine what you see of the the mirror is x4 y2 in size, the spring is shown at x3 y1)

    spring_looking_up.jpg
    Rotated as if you've walked inside and looking up at the reservoir at the pin hole

    Then I photoed the rear of the casting near the rear reservoir - notice there is no hole or exposed spring, but there is some sort of paint? epoxy? painted into the corner. I guess minor (cosmetic) cracks in the casting are inevitable, so they just cover them up.
    img_6964.jpg

    So, again, if the holes were drilled intentionally to drail oil, one would think all four of these reservoirs would behave the same (i.e. have a drill hole that intersects the wall of the casting to allow oil to drain).


    Torin...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Mio MI, USA
    Posts
    14
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    I'll take a look at the manual that came with our machine tomorrow. If I can, I'll scan the page(s) that cover lubrication and post them.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Oakville, Ontario
    Posts
    120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    13

    Default

    CamKong,

    That is fantastic. I've scoured every B&S 13-related document available on Vintage Machinery plus many of their other manuals for clues as to the lubrication details for this machine but to no avail. Obviously, oil cups get oil, and different types of oil and at different intervals assuming one has a basic understanding of ways, gears, and spindles, but it would be nice to see what specific instructions B&S provided for my machine in particular. I found some correlated lubrication guidance in their #5 Grinder manual indicating lubrication points and suggsted schedule but no manual so far that I've read describes the table-way roller mechanism used by the B&S #13.

    I think the guys who were on shift the day my machine was drilled and grooved for the roller guides must have bumped the head of their milling machine out of tram because the holes and slots that guide these rollers were cut 2 full degrees out from vertical. Were these war-era machines made in a big hurry by extra workers who perhaps made mistakes like this?

    I plugged and re-drilled the hole only to find the rollers and drilled hole were pointing away from one another causing the roller to bind so had to take another approach. On the next try shown below, I fashion a drill bushing aligned to the slots thereby keeping the drill axis parallel.

    88b8172e-9671-416f-8841-cae703c85bcb.jpg 54a7c96c-4b27-446a-9525-92bcf110b3a4.jpg e626f52c-8a17-4ab5-a09f-3d4a4171f1db.jpg
    From left to right (sorry about the rotation):
    1. Guides for roller not vertical so can't drill vertical (normal to table).
    2. Fashion a guided drill bushing that rides in the guide slots
    3. Spring and roller reinstalled in the new non-leaking hole.

    Now that the hole no longer leaks, table is back on, oil wells filled, and everything operating smoothly, I am very curious to see what procedure is described to maintain proper these oil wells. One way is to traverse the table to the far extremes until the table uncovers the oil wells, but with any load at either end (as would be the case with the motorized headstock attachment,) the table would surely tip and crash to the floor. So it would be nice if the documentation confirmed using the little pockets at the ends of the table for depositing more way oil.

    We shall see. Thank you. Can't wait to see what the book says.

    Torin..
    Last edited by torinwalker; 10-30-2020 at 08:32 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Posts
    13,298
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    6617
    Likes (Received)
    2603

    Default

    May not have been "guys" running the drill that day, if it was war era. That sure looks like an oops to me. Tough to really fix it right. I wouldn't try welding on it, of course. Maybe stick a dowel of some kind in the hole and use epoxy to seal it up. Should be no load on it, just trying to get it liquid tight. Maybe even make a little sheet metal patch and seal it up with RTV, screws or drive rivets to keep it in place.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Oakville, Ontario
    Posts
    120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    13

    Default

    Mike, that's exactly what I did - I drilled it larger to encompass the size of a new plug (including the angle that would be needed), fit the plug down in there with some Permatex metal expoxy, let it cure, then used the aforementioned slot-guided drill bushing to drill a new hole. As far as whether it was guys or gals, makes no difference. They drilled and slotted this table on a slant. Strange no one noticed any of this.

    No matter. It's fixed now and I can move on. Now I'm working on the headstock motor and fitting up pulleys and belts; one such pully spindle has, get this, a 1/2-14 left hand thread. Just picked up a 1/2-13 LH nut from the local hardware store figuring easy win, tried it out and couldn't get it past the first few threads. Took out a screw gauge, and wouldn't you know it - 14 TPI, rather than 13 TPI. So weird.

    I wonder what other weirdness I'll encounter enroute to getting this machine up and running.

    All I can say is, thank goodness for standards bodies (e.g. ANSI) who sorted all this mess out.


    Torin...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Mio MI, USA
    Posts
    14
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Torin,
    I looked in the manual that came with our grinder today, unfortunately it looks like the manual is for a later model as it mentions the automatic lube pump.
    bs13manual.jpg
    I looked at the back side of the table and there are holes drilled in the base casting that go to the roller pockets. The holes are threaded so perhaps they had oil cups at some point. I don't think they are factory but it seems like it might be a valid option for providing oil to the rollers.
    bs13lube1.jpg
    bs13lube2.jpg
    In one of your previous posts you mentioned filling the depressions at the end of the table on the base casting with oil and letting it run back. Our two grinders might be different because even filled with oil ours would still be an 1/8" below the level needed to run back to the roller pockets.
    bs13lube3.jpg

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Oakville, Ontario
    Posts
    120
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    13

    Default

    Too bad about the manual. Those models don't have troughs that run from the oil wells to pockets at either end. They just ways with holes up from the bottom of the casting.

    Curious how yours are so much lower than mine. Looking at mine, it still doesn't seem right that one would oil the ways this way, which is why I was so curious to see what the manual said. I will however look for oil holes from front and back - perhaps drilling oil holes and installing right-angled cups front and back (excess oil draining to the pockets at the end indicating proper levels of lubrication) are a possibility.

    Well thank you for the effort. At least we have the same machine. Perhaps as we each find out more about our respective machines, we can trade knowledge.

    Torin...


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •