1965 Lodge & Shipley Powerturn 1408 AVS

1965 Lodge & Shipley Powerturn 1408 AVS

I’m not sure where the age/time cutoff is for “antique” lathes or if I should actually post this in the Monarch lathes forum or not.

I just bought this lathe and I’m starting this thread to just document it, ask questions, seek help, find tooling, ...



The lathe needs some TLC and elbow grease, but the ways are in great shape (and they are replaceable!!).

Once I get it moved and cleaned up, I’d like to try to reproduce this picture as closely as possible:




That’s my lathe!!
I probably won’t paint the lathe itself, but might paint some of the smaller bits that have lost a lot of paint. But I’ll only do it if I can find a perfect match.
I called Monarch to inquire about the machine and documentation and their guy asked me if it was painted gold. I told him it was and he sent me that cover page.

The machine came with most of its original tooling and then some:



3 jaw, 4 jaw, faceplate, steadyrest, follower rest, taper turning attachment, 5C taper adapter and closer, KDK post, carriage stops, indicator holder, ...

I’d like to find as much documentation, history, tooling, ... as I can for it.

Last night after I got the kids in bed, I started in on cleaning some of the tooling.

5C taper adapter as I got it:



After some quality time with WD40 and Scotchbrite:



I’m open to suggestions on better ways to remove gunk and surface rust.

I also did a little on the 5C closer drawtube and handwheel.
Before:



After some cleaning (not done yet):

I found a Royal 4 way toolpost that looks like it might be a good match for the manual cover picture:

It's got what watch collectors call " patina ", if that was a James Bond Rolex it would be worth a fortune.
Wouldn't the original tool post be of the indexable style ? A four way tool post with no means of accurate location is not much good for serious use.

Regards Tyrone.

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

It's got what watch collectors call " patina ", if that was a James Bond Rolex it would be worth a fortune.
Wouldn't the original tool post be of the indexable style ? A four way tool post with no means of accurate location is not much good for serious use.

Regards Tyrone.

Click to expand...

Thanks!

I’m going to call Monarch and see if they can email me a list of what came with it or what’s in the picture. The odds seem pretty slim that they’d be able to find the original pictures or negatives, but that sure would be neat!

You mean like a 4 station turret?

The cover picture looks like a 4-way toolpost.

rpseguin said:

Thanks!

I’m going to call Monarch and see if they can email me a list of what came with it or what’s in the picture. The odds seem pretty slim that they’d be able to find the original pictures or negatives, but that sure would be neat!

You mean like a 4 station turret?

The cover picture looks like a 4-way toolpost.

Click to expand...

In that era, one hardly ever saw anything BUT a 4-Way on an L&S. Or most any other "engine" lathe, actually.

I never had any wish for "accurate indexing" built-in. Establishing that part to suit the need was a factor in my paycheck.

The 4-Way wasn't even on the clock.

Your four way is not the same one as in the picture. The one in the picture is a McCrosky (sp). Probably a six inch square. You got to remember, back in 1965, Lathes came standard with the old American standard rocker tool post, period! Four ways, if you were lucky, were a luxury item back then. Aloris was just making a start in the industry back then.

Why in the heck do you want to make it like that in the picture? Find you a Aloris or clone in a CA size, mount it and get after it! Screw that four way! And move on. It's a lathe, it's made to cut iron, not look pretty as it did new.

Ken

4GSR said:

Your four way is not the same one as in the picture. The one in the picture is a McCrosky (sp). Probably a six inch square. You got to remember, back in 1965, Lathes came standard with the old American standard rocker tool post, period! Four ways, if you were lucky, were a luxury item back then.
Ken

Click to expand...

Not on industrial lathes. The 4-Way was by no means a "new idea" - our ancient "wheel" lathes had them, probably built pre-1900.

War Two production had pretty well seen-off the lantern TP on the heavies 25 years earlier than this 1965 lathe's build-date. Lanterns could manage brazed Carbides, but were badly suited to insert toolholders. Carbides were not yet "good enough" that HSS could be abandoned entirely. The 4-Way could do either/both.

Still can.


McCrosky, however, is no longer making them. 4-ways had never been their only product.

McCrosky Tools | Tool Fabrication

rpseguin said:

Thanks!

I’m going to call Monarch and see if they can email me a list of what came with it or what’s in the picture. The odds seem pretty slim that they’d be able to find the original pictures or negatives, but that sure would be neat!

You mean like a 4 station turret?

The cover picture looks like a 4-way toolpost.

Click to expand...

All the production lathes I've worked on in the last 40 years have had indexing tool posts. You release the locking lever a bit more than half a turn. Then you can " ratchet " the tool post to the next station. There is a spring loaded hardened plunger that comes up from underneath the tool post into one of four drill bushes mounted in the tool post. That locates the tool post in exactly the same position as previously.

I don't know how anybody does production work without one.

Regards Tyrone.

Consider me jealous, that's a beautiful little lathe! And the collet adapter is a super useful accessory.

thermite said:

Not on industrial lathes. The 4-Way was by no means a "new idea" - our ancient "wheel" lathes had them, probably built pre-1900.

War Two production had pretty well seen-off the lantern TP on the heavies 25 years earlier than this 1965 lathe's build-date. Lanterns could manage brazed Carbides, but were badly suited to insert toolholders. Carbides were not yet "good enough" that HSS could be abandoned entirely. The 4-Way could do either/both.

Still can.


McCrosky, however, is no longer making them. 4-ways had never been their only product.

McCrosky Tools | Tool Fabrication

Click to expand...

Thermite,

I was kind of going off your post just above mine. And your are correct, they have been around quite a long time.

What can I say, I'm spoiled to using Aloris tool post all my 40 years of running lathes. I do remember the other two being used when I was in diapers! Just wasn't tall enough to run those Big lathes back then.

Ken

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

All the production lathes I've worked on in the last 40 years have had indexing tool posts. You release the locking lever a bit more than half a turn. Then you can " ratchet " the tool post to the next station. There is a spring loaded hardened plunger that comes up from underneath the tool post into one of four drill bushes mounted in the tool post. That locates the tool post in exactly the same position as previously.

I don't know how anybody does production work without one.

Regards Tyrone.

Click to expand...

Indeed, I dont know what thermite was babbling about when he said it didnt matter.
Asides from accuracy with a lathe of reasonable power the tool post twisting is a problem.
I have a concord lathe where the four way was fitted badly from new and is not a 90°
So instead of refitting it out of lack of inclination at present Im relying upon the centre bolt which has resulted in several broken tips whilst internal screwcutting.

4GSR said:

Thermite,

I was kind of going off your post just above mine. And your are correct, they have been around quite a long time.

What can I say, I'm spoiled to using Aloris tool post all my 40 years of running lathes. I do remember the other two being used when I was in diapers! Just wasn't tall enough to run those Big lathes back then.

Ken

Click to expand...

What can a person say when some wag says: "Oh you won't have any trouble finding Bill in a crowd at the convention. He's the one that looks like he could be God's older brother!"

I'd surmise that Dickson, KD, Tripan, Multifix, Aloris, -"Quick Change" as a nation and its tribes and clans, IOW - were not initially even usable. Not enough "stuff" could make use of repeatable positioning. Tools - brazed carbides as well, now and then - were mostly hand-ground.

Those could not even have come into BEING until seriously better inserted carbides became first of all 1) advantageous to USE for the Big Guns (with MONEY), then 2) affordable for the less-affluent shops, ultimately 3) desired and common as good value-for-money, essentially all shops.

IOW the QCTP served the improved tooling, first, then tooling in turn grew to "expect and require" highly-repeatable positioning for drop-in toolholding to work worth a damn.

4-Way needed individual "fiddling", but in production-line environments, that might not be done by an operator who was also an all-around Machinist.

The "operator" might be a housewife, her tooling arranged by a lead-man or "gang leader" who was also the "setup guy" and first-line of QC/QA.

First World War England, me G'mum from Merseyside is an example.

Her task? "to put the pointy shape on the end" of... 14" projectiles for the main battery guns of Royal Navy dreadnoughts. At about 4' 10" tall, and a slender girl, I doubt she could have even lifted her tooling. And I assure you, she was not au fait with much more than which handles to move, in what direction, at what time in the "cycle".

Even so, not much ever long survived a pounding from those shells - made by "mere girls" or otherwise.

The Monarch guy confirmed it was a 4-way toolpost.

For indexing, I can use this dude:

rpseguin said:

The Monarch guy confirmed it was a 4-way toolpost.

For indexing, I can use this dude:

Click to expand...

SEVERAL .. of my many 4-Way.. are Hardinge-branded. Just not on, nor destined for Hardinge mounts.

One of them allegedly repeats, each "station", to one ten-thousandth of an inch.

In my choice of HSS-Cobalt & Sputniks, hand-ground?

That is actually a handicap!

That is a super and rather rare L&S model. I own her big sister. You do not need a "C" size tool post. This size is big and heavy and unnecessary. I very successfully use a "B" Multi-fix on her big sister with a 1/2" spacer with no stiffness issues. On that lathe, no spacer would be needed. The "B" is the right size.

Out of curiosity, what spindle is the lathe equipped with? L&S offered several options.

steve-l said:

That is a super and rather rare L&S model. I own her big sister. You do not need a "C" size tool post. This size is big and heavy and unnecessary. I very successfully use a "B" Multi-fix on her big sister with a 1/2" spacer with no stiffness issues. On that lathe, no spacer would be needed. The "B" is the right size.

Click to expand...

Thanks!
Got pictures of the big sister?
Yeah, I’ve got a KDK post and holders that will work.
What taper is your tailstock?
This 1408 has a beefy tailstock, but it’s only #3 MT

steve-l said:

Out of curiosity, what spindle is the lathe equipped with? L&S offered several options.

Click to expand...

Not sure exactly.
It was originally a 7.5 horsepower DC motor. Now it’s a 10 horsepower AC with a VFD nicely integrated.

I’m planning on moving the lathe next week sometime. While my Toyota Tundra is gold, it’s more like a champagne gold.
I’m not sure if that’s considered gauche or a violation of lathe moving/rigging etiquette to have mismatched colors between the lathe and tow vehicle. :-)

My Toyota Tacoma will pull it with no problem. Even at highway speeds. And it's red.