2 phase Whiton Centering Lathe Machine
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    Default 2 phase Whiton Centering Lathe Machine

    I bought this machine a few years ago in anticipation of a job that never came about.

    Good thing, because the motor was stuck solid!

    I now have a job for it, so I just pulled the motor, tore it apart and freed it up.

    My brother does most of my motor and switch figuring out, because he learned early about electricity by having me, about 5 years old, stick my finger in a light socket!

    But this is new to him, too.

    I did some research on 2 phase and it has an interesting history, involving Tesla, the northeastern part of the country, and it's ultimate demise in 1981 in Niagra/Buffalo/Philadelphia.

    That Tesla mentioned was the REAL one, way back, not the modern car, but, one site said that the Chevy Volt uses a 2 phase motor.

    My Ohms glaze over and Impede any understanding when Electrical people start conversing, which has a shocking language all it's own.

    I see where a solution was a Scott-T transformer, and this site seemed to be the easiest to understand..

    Scott-T Transformer Connection Overview

    ..but I am still lost.

    We will keep doing research to figure this out, but, surely some one out there has found a Wham-Bam method to solve this issue.

    It has 4 wires.

    Can anyone come up with a solution that my brother can understand and explain to me?


    No, I don't want to change the motor.

    Thanks for any input!

    I'll add more about the machine itself.

    Mike

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    The catalog copy is from 1909, but, I'm sure the motor on the one I have is original, so, a later model.

    It has two three jaw chucks.

    The pictures show the spindle head that is swung, by the big knob, to two positions that allow the handle to pull the center drill into the work, or a different tool, which I don't have, but, assume to be a spot face?


    Another picture shows a sliding knob that engages the gear train to allow the three jaw chuck to revolve the work, the opposite direction of the drill, or disengaged for only the drill to spin, with the work stationary.


    The hole is 4 1/4 diameter.

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    Default

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    Create a 90° phase imbalance from the single
    phase source with a capacitor (or even an
    inductor). Most single phase induction motors
    use a capacitor to offset the single phase to
    energize the start winding.

    -D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozer View Post
    Create a 90° phase imbalance from the single
    phase source with a capacitor (or even an
    inductor). Most single phase induction motors
    use a capacitor to offset the single phase to
    energize the start winding.

    -D

    Thanks, Doozer.

    I am still in kindergarten on electricity, but, I am grateful to you for at least letting me believe it CAN be done.


    So, a capacitor or inductor will "redirect" the energy to each phase, as I understand what you said.


    I know that single phase pushes in one place, so, needs a starter to get rotation.

    2 phase pushes in two places, 180 degrees apart.

    3 phase pushes in three places, 120 degrees apart.


    So, the 120V Line splits through the capacitor to feed the second phase, instead of a separate starter circuit..


    Ok, I think I just took a baby step in the right direction

    Thanks

    Mike

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    Use two phases of a 3 phase VFD output? 220 from a house is two 110's 180 degrees out of phase. If this motor depends on the phases being 120 out from each other, will it still work?

    Do you have 3 phase power where this thing is?

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    interesting..

    I know nothing about VFD, but, I do run a rotary convertor where the machine is, so 3 phase is available.

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    I grew up in a family of electricians and do my own work. I have always heard the reference of the three phases as follows.
    110 volt
    220 volt
    Three phase.
    Technically 220 is 2 phase. Is that the proper reference?.
    No intention here to correct the poster here. Im missing seeing 220 referred to as two phase .

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    I did read in some site where someone suggested running two legs of the three phase, but, I got lost, as they took off in theory while I was twisting copper.

    2 phase is a totally different animal than what we use now.

    It was popular in the turn of the century, but, lost favor when 3 phase was developed.

    Supposedly, there are still some buildings in Philly, and Buffalo, and Niagra that are wired 2 phase, but, it was finally stopped being used they say in 1981.

    They say that the original Niagra generators were 2 phase, based on Tesla's direct input, but, I would have to go back and find the sites I visited but did not absorb all the history.

    It is an interesting read if you research it.


    I just have to think that there are still many 2 phase motors that didn't get scrapped and are still being used on single, or 3 phase lines..
    Somehow.
    That's my question.
    How?

    Here is a better picture of the motor tag.

    2-phase-motor-tag.jpg
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    I believe parts of Philadelphia are still served with utility supplied 2 phase electric as well as three phase.

    I think that Scott transformer is a way to get both 2- and 3-phase from the same source. I never tried it.

    Four wire is a regular two-phase, I think.

    I am from Philadelphia and, in 1985, when I bought a bunch of machines from my family's Philadelphia business and brought them up to my home in Vermont somebody told me I could make a home-made phase converter converting my single phase 220 power to two phase in the same manner that a few people were doing with three phase. That is starting a polyphase motor whether 2 or 3 phase on single phase current--this wouldn't start unless you gave it a spin manually--and take the polyphase out of that motor supplied with only single phase. I did that with a two phase motor in 1986 and ran three two phase machines with it, without any problem, until i shut down that shop 12 years later, in 1998.

    That is the simplest method. The Scott transformer method might be the best at this point if another 2 phase motor is not at hand. However there are hundreds of them still in Philadelphia, I think.

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    240 volt is still single phase. It is not two phase. 2 phase is two different circuits that are 90 degrees out of phase.

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    Running 2 phase motors using a RPC was discussed in this thread:
    Single-phase to Two-phase and Three-phase

    I get a headache trying to follow it all, but it shows how to achieve it. And since you have a rotary convertor, Mike, maybe your brother can help you get that old motor running with help from that thread.

    Irby

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    Verification that this is indeed a two phase motor is seen on the nameplate. 1200 RPM it says.

    Single phase motors have "slip" and typically run 40 to 100 cycles "behind" synchronous speed. 1740, 3560, or 1150 rpm at full load. The slip is a function of the torque involved.

    Two and three phase motors are "synchronized" and operate at 1800/3600/1200 depending on number of poles. No slip. The torque is derived by the phase angle with synchronism.

    Joe in NH

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    Single phase 220 is just that... one single phase, which is split by the center tap (neutral) on your pole transformer.

    Two phase is two distinct signals that are 90 degrees out of phase with each other.

    I had a Wade 94 lathe for a while that came from Philadelphia, and was two phase. Never ran it, but I think the easiest way would be to build a rotary converter using a two phase motor. Finding the motor to use as a generator would probably be the hardest part.

    Andy

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    Thanks, Irby,

    I am still dizzy from reading that link, but my brother just might make some sense of it all.

    There is another thread here on PM that two very qualified electrical guys poked each other, but, it was way up in the clouds to me.

    I am envisioning a small box, like a static convertor, mounted on the machine to run the original motor, patent date of July 4, 1916, back when they worked through holidays.

    All I have found, so far, of discussion of Scott T transformers are for the power pole and not for an individual little motor.

    I may call American Rotary tomorrow to see if they offer a solution.


    Joe,

    That is something that I read no where else about identifying 2 phase by the RPM showing no slip.
    Great stuff.


    I did read that 2 phase has immediate torque at start up.

    Thanks for all the input.
    I will be sure to post my simple solution when it happens.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in NH View Post
    Verification that this is indeed a two phase motor is seen on the nameplate. 1200 RPM it says.

    Single phase motors have "slip" and typically run 40 to 100 cycles "behind" synchronous speed. 1740, 3560, or 1150 rpm at full load. The slip is a function of the torque involved.

    Two and three phase motors are "synchronized" and operate at 1800/3600/1200 depending on number of poles. No slip. The torque is derived by the phase angle with synchronism.

    Joe in NH
    Standard three phase motors are not synchronous motors. A synchronous motor has no starting torque and requires external DC power to the rotor.

    A standard three phase motor requires slip to operate. At zero slip, there is zero torque. Bearing friction and fan loads prevent the motor ever achieving synchronous speed.

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    It is worth a try to connect it to a 3 phase vfd and lower the voltage a bit to compensate for the phase angle difference (200 volts perhaps instead of 220)


    if that doesn't work or doesn't generate the torque you want, you can make a scott t transformer from a 120:120 isolation transformer connected as an auto transformer. connect it to two phases of the vfd. use a 24 volt boost/buck autotransformer connected from the vfd third phase to the center point of the 120:120 auto transformer to boost the voltage from 208 by 24 volts.


    for a 2 hp motor a 500 watt 120vac isolation transformer is plenty large enough, and the boost/buck transformer only needs to handle the full motor amps through the 24 volt secondary, which is what, 4 amps or something? i can't read the nameplate. so that's like a 3 pound transformer.

    anyhow, you don't need a legit "Scott-T" transformer in this case because the motor windings aren't connected together and they can float.



    also, you can run that motor with a start/run capacitor same as any single phase induction motor.. it just won't be as efficient as it would be running on two phase.


    i can draw a diagram for the transformers if you want.


    the nameplate reads 1700 rpm in my opinion..

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    Standard three phase motors are not synchronous motors. A synchronous motor has no starting torque and requires external DC power to the rotor.

    A standard three phase motor requires slip to operate. At zero slip, there is zero torque. Bearing friction and fan loads prevent the motor ever achieving synchronous speed.
    Thank you on the "heads up." You are correct in pointing out the difference between an INDUCTION AC motor and a SYNCHRONOUS AC motor.

    The induction motor indeed does have slip (I'm reminded by Wikipedia Induction motor - Wikipedia) although the slip for polyphase motors is less than single phase usually less than 1 percent for large motors.

    The synchronous AC motor is essentially the "opposite" of an AC generator as found in my alma mater power plants, where a DC field current is varied to "load" the generator (actually a combination of "lead" phase-wise via torque from the turbine and field current) The generator operators vary field and steam loading (throttle) to keep within a certain curve of design for the generator.

    One imagines a synchronous motor is essentially the opposite of this.

    And both operate at synchronous speed.

    The only synchronous AC motor in the power plant was the motor drive for the coal conveyor. 4' wide belt about 500 feet long covered to a depth of about 8 inches in coal, and raising the coal about 100 feet. Starting that weight of coal UPHILL was the reason for providing extremely high starting torque capability.

    Gosh its been a while since Electric Circuits 101. Good time for a review and a memory trip. Thanks!

    Joe in NH

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    johansen,

    A simple drawing would be great!

    It sounds like you have some solutions to my problem.

    Also, my understanding of research on various electrical sites lead me to believe that this 2 phase is basically just two single phase motors wired together.

    I like the idea of wiring a start/run capacitor at a lower efficiency.
    I'll only be drilling a few center holes, not running full production, so that should work well.


    no. 1493513 TYPE KQ 121 4 1 1/2 1800

    Form C Cyc 60 2 phase

    Volts 220 speed full load 1700

    amp 4.1

    1 1/2 hp continuously 25% overload 2hrs 55


    Thanks much!

    Mike

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    Yeah, that should work. VFD is basically a solid state box that does what a rotary converter does. I have one on my lathe. Regular 220in and 220 3 phase out. It'a a box about 4" by 8" I mounted to the wall.

    Seems to me you could just use 2 phases of your 2 phase power.


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