3/4 " Scale Hudson Locomotive built by Victor Shattock. - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Learn something new everyday. Don't feel bad, guys. I don't even like myself.

    Bring on more trains!!!! Videos of them puffing away????

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    Joe raises some excellent points on the Scotch Marine boilers, Thinking back to my teenage years & A.F. Craigs boiler shop reminds me of an old craftsman who worked in that department, Willie Browning, He was the boilershop fitter, and I was alwaysabsolutely awe inspired as to old Wull, WEll he was old to me as a teenager I think he might only have been in his mid fifties, The mountings for the water guages were heavy steel tubes which came out from the boilers and had round flanges which this old fitter using a combination of filing and hand scraping had to get them fair and parallel, and with a surface finish of about ten points per square inch , His work had to pass the final inspection by the clients inspector, Frequently Lloyds or the continental insurance houses, Other fitting work around the boilers were his domain also
    When I worked for that firm they were building some boilers for a Swedish shipbuilding concern, The Elsinore Shipbuilding Company, I told my dad about these boilers and his ears pricked up, At that time he was sitting up in bed recovering from a heart attack, which finished his working career, for any heavy work, He told me of his life in Australia not long after he came home from the first world war, When he came back home to "A land fit for Heroes", he said only a hero could have lived in Britain at that period with the great depression hitting the world , hot on the heels of the great war
    Well he obviously had another of his bright ideas, He was not alone with that one , As both himself and some of the other young men in our town decided to emigrate down under, When they arrived in australia they found life was not much better,and one of the few occupations he could manage at Sydney, after trudging all over a fair bit of Australia , was as a boiler scaler, To say he had a heavy hot dirty unpleasant job was a total understatement, That was his words to me that evening, He was on one week scaling the inside of two boilers , Again Scotch boilers, and he had a horrible feeling of unease inside the shells of them, his Scottish intuition was not far out, As the watch engineeron the particular ship said " Keep your wits about you son" It would seem two boiler scalers had been scalded to death inside the shell of this boiler I imegiately thought stuff that for a game of soldiers, I will never be a boiler scaler !
    however he was sent to work on an almost new Swedish ship which was built by The Elsinore Shipbuilding Co , He said she was was possibly only two years old An oil burner fitted with Wallsend Howden oilburning systems
    The chief engineer seeing he was a handy soul and not averse to getting on with the job said he would sign him on as a fireman, Which he did, He seemed to have been a pretty decent soul , Dad had a crash course in oil firing marine auxiliaries and heaven knows what else was needed to know +a crash course in basic Swedish language
    The chifs idea was to bring him home drop him off at Leith on the way back to Sweden and pick him up on the way back to australia. Fine except if anythiing could go wrong it would go wrong, As we say Lucky White Heather Word came down from the Swedish legation that a distressed Swedish sailor was requiring a posting home, In spite of the Chiefs plea , He was paid off.
    Next along came a telegraph from home his mother was ill and get back, So he joined the coal burning ship Horarata, A Liverpool Irish stokehold crew, He always said not a patch on the Swedes , In fact Scum was a better catagory , He could defend himself pretty ably, so a few busted noses all round cooled their behavior.
    In those balmy days of the 1950-65 ish period at the entrance to The Glasgow docks, was various offices just inside the dock entrances there were at least a couple of firms of Stevedores, I was not until much llater to learn what an important and skilled man a foreman stevedore was,How things have become totally deskilled with the container era, Another firm I remember rejoiced in the title of The Glasgow Boiler Scaling and rivetting Company

    One day over on the other side of the river The Finnieston district, I wqas having a stroll around the side of the quey, One could go down and get close to the ships tied up When I spied old number 24 Clyde Navigation Trust mud hopper vessel , she had a bit of smoke coming from her funnel & she was still about the last hand fired of her fleet, up onto the deck for a breather came her fireman , So I ended up talking to the man & managed to get a sneak preview of his boiler and engine room Two triple expansion engines and one big three furnace Scotch boiler, Well the reason I mention this ditty which has taken me far of the thread was the words the man uttered "I am only her fireman" I was taken aback, And even for my age , for once was on the ball, I said " Stop right there You are not only a Fireman , Never forget you are a highly skilled and important member of your team" He said , I wish my relations had heard you saying that" totally undervalued in society I wonder how many folks would have had his skill in managing his fires, and his stick ability and stamina on a hot day.
    further to that during menouvers his job was in the engine room manning one of the engines along with the chief, Only a Fireman?

    some years ago I was at another stupid talk, and a member of the brains trusy was saying how the high skills of the guys who worked the Kearns horizontal borers was top potato, and the structural guys not very good, I thought well well , well, When one sees the skill of the angle smiths every bit as skilled and the old machinist in the old traditional marine engineering firms such as Rankin & Blackmore , and McKie & Baxters in Paisley operating their old fashioned Harvey Horizontal Drilling boring & tapping machines , Absolutely no micrometer dials only pure skill
    Maybe I will get back to talking about boilers and stop bitching and whining , Joe talks about the corrugated furnace tubes, well Craigs made these things in the dozens, both for their own boilers and other folks They wer formed in cast iron dies in a massive vertical pressm, The interesting point about them was they were straight towards the front at the firesection were smooth, Then they were corrugated, and went from totally circular to an egg shapem ending up on the front and back section with a flange for rivetting to the front boiler shell, and also to the front plate of the combustion chamber As the these boiler firedrums were manufactured from a single plate they were longitudinally electric welded, The most imp[ortant man was the xray technician and the metallurgist
    Another thing which springs to mind was the pressure testing of these huge boilers, they ere filled up with fresh cold pure water from a depp well which was across the road , down the tunnel in towards the engine works, The pressure was forced up by a really clever little compressed air vertical piston pump which seened to me to have a lot of aluminium about it Craigs had a batch of these handy things all over the works, They were made by a firm in the Manchester are called Charles S Madan They were called Air Hydro Pumps. A man could lift them up and carry them no problem, and they worked from the works air line by a flexible hose connection They could be adjusted by turning a knob to any pressure desired

  3. #63
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    This has been a wonderful learning experience reading through so many thoughts and memories. I do believe this great discussion has raised more questions than answers at least in my mind. One of the things I have learned in life is memory can be a hard task master for people who think in generalities such as myself.

    I am VERY grateful to all of you who have contributed so much to this interesting thread. It just goes to show you how deeply ingrained into our minds and hearts the STEAM locomotive has become. Even younger people are filled with awe at their seething presence..like a modern day Dragon fitted with Rods and Motion. It has been so wonderful reading the posts of men who intimately know and knew these engines which yet cause one to pause and reflect.

    I mentioned my "generalized" memory. I take after my Mother who always remember the main "Gist" of a conversation..not necessarily the exact detail. Dad was like Joe Michaels. Dad could remember what he had for breakfast the first day of kindergarten. My conversation with Keith who has contributed much to this thread caused me to dig through my old stacks of paperwork I had kept. I kept my notes from speaking to Ken Shattock. I knew someday I would need them. I found them. This conversation occurred in 2012.

    I do not wish to mention the name of the person at this point as his Widow may still be alive. You can PM me if you want this information. However this MAN was a Motor Cycle Cop in 1936. Later in life he and his wife owned a PRINTING company in Oakland. Here is where my memory failed..or otherwise. I said this Man lived in Oakland, Ca. Ken said this person lived in Visalia, Ca. Ken also said this man was a collector of this sort of thing. I cannot explain Paul Schwitzer saying he obtained this Hudson from Oakland.

    At this point it is enough to know a very skillful person who knew full size locomotive practice intimately built this Hudson. Saying all this I do believe Keith has properly identified the MODEL or ORIGINS of this particular design. I really appreciate Keith taking the time to add to this thread. Obviously it is modeled around plans drawn by Martin S.Lewis who originated the Company LITTLE ENGINES out of Lomita Ca. This company sold plans, Castings and sundries for model steam locomotive building for many years. It exists yet selling larger gauge Models.
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    I measured a few of the dimensions Keith sent on his General arrangement drawing and except for minor changes they match. Also the overall general design appears to match the drawing especially in regards to the wheels and motion work..the motion brackets and valve gear. I cleaned some the of the parts with Scotchbrite hoping to achieve better detail.Most of that Gunk you see is dust and dried oil and cleans off easily enough.

    The pictures in the last post show the locomotive "Up Side" down. I wanted to do a comparison of building techniques on the bogies. Keith's print shows what appear to be a casting for the side frames of the trailing wheels. However on this particular model this entire Bogie is built up with various angles, channel and other bits and pieces. The beading around the edges of the outside plates appear to be iron wire which appear brazed or soldered to keep it in place.

    I think the construction of this bogie is incredible.. all fabricated and built up using common materials. This is the construction of the Trailing Bogie.

    Next post shows the TENDER Bogies which are built using the same fabrication technique.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100_4845.jpg   100_4848.jpg   100_4850.jpg   100_4844.jpg   100_4849.jpg  


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    The Tender bogies are fabricated in the same manner as the trailing Bogie. This Tender has the Vanderbilt style Bogie. The only castings on this tender are the Coupler pockets. Everything else is fabricated from rounds and flats..channels and plate. It is all steel construction.

    Obviously the same person built the Tender and the Trailing wheels of the Locomotive. I wonder if this is one of the Tender's built by Victor Shattock " Mated" to this locomotive...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100_4841.jpg   100_4840.jpg   100_4838.jpg   100_4839.jpg   100_4842.jpg  


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    Now the LEADING Truck on the Hudson IS a bronze casting and being compared to the others is very simple indeed. You cannot make it out in these pics but the wheel axles have no bearings. They simply ride in a rectangular slot..up and down have no separate bearing. A very simple bogie compared to the others. This bogie seems correct to the Martin S. Lewis design.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100_4843.jpg   100_4846.jpg   100_4847.jpg   100_4851.jpg  

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    So..based on these differences a question arises in my mind. I almost think the Tender is a Shattock built unit along with the Trailing bogie of the Locomotive. This MAY be where the confusion arises..maybe TWO different builders or maybe not. Keith doesn't think the Hudson is a Shattock because it most definitely is a Martin S. Lewis Chassis and Boiler.

    But in my mind I can see where Lewis and Shattock were contemporaries in their field. Perhaps they collaborated on this design or maybe not. We'll probably never know the real story but there IS a story in these " Words and Music" as Curly Lawrence use to say

    Now Joe..pics for you, Mac and Christy. I removed the Smoke Box from the boiler to see how the front Tube plate is fitted. It appears to be a 1/4" slug of steel welded in. The tubes do not appear to be rolled or"drifted" in place yet. Also there is a large open hole directly above the tubes probably being where the regulator flange was going to be fitted. Expert opinions and thoughts are VERY welcomed
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    Here are the remainder of the Boiler pics.

    When this locomotive is assembled it almost seems it should be a 1" Scale rather than a 3/4" Scale Hudson. These Hudson's were huge!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100_4858.jpg   100_4857.jpg   100_4859.jpg   100_4860.jpg   100_4862.jpg  


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    Mac..one of the most interesting stories I have ever read. Hard life back in them days. People earned every dollar by the sweat of their brows and knowledge. Isn't it amazing how now..people can graduate with an engineering degree and not even know the difference between AC and DC voltage?

    One of these guys at work ( I'm a dedicated Parts Man to a John Deere Service Dept ) caused me to have a little fun. I said Steve..you need an AC or DC battery? Huh? Yea..you know, alternating current or direct current ? Oh..Let me go double check. He came back later and said there's only one part number for the battery and to give him that. He eventually caught on

    Point is..that knowledge and skill Mac speaks of..mostly all gone. To mold those corrugated tubes in one go in one die..amazing operation that took tremendous skill. Just think of the heat treat operation that was required. I wonder if they were pressed while red hot ?

    Sorry Joe..had to laugh at your comment regarding how hard these corrugated fire boxes were on the knees I could only imagine having bad knees and bone spurs how painful this felt. Also what you wrote about those "tiny spaces" and small holes a guy had to climb through and work in. VERY hard work both physically and mentally taking a great toll on body and hearing.

    Amazing to read about these boilers and the skill it took to make them..the machinery and technique with design orchestrated in terms of life and blood. Thank you for these insights and memory. These things NEED to be remembered.

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    Our Own Moderator John Oder has very graciously sent me the book he posted written by Martin S. Lewis. Thank you VERY much John. I deeply appreciate this. It is stormy here in California tonight and I have spent a very enjoyable and fascinating evening reading about the construction of this particular design.

    Keith Taylor positively identified this as the Martin Lewis design he described building in the Model Craftsman Magazine in the 1930's. This was a freelance more or less and eventually ended up as a commercial Model whose castings could be purchased from LITTLE ENGINES out of Lomita California.

    I checked John's great book very carefully and all the details line up and match what I have. It was very enjoyable studying Martin's drawing's understanding them perfectly being I took Mechanical Drawing four years in High School and learned "Old School". It is also interesting to see most of his drawing's in fraction's leaving most running clearances and tolerances up to the builder. On the really important stuff like piston valves and shrink fits he specifies the allowances but normally the prints are in fractions.

    I'll be posting some pages of drawing's especially the boiler next "go around". I just wanted to thank Keith Taylor and John Oder for their help and generosity toward identifying the origins of this design. Thanks guys!

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    Lester:

    As this thread evolves, I am getting a lot of enjoyment from it, aside from plumbing the depths of my memory. A job landed in my lap a few days ago. Talk of a dinosaur meeting modern "Information Technology". A railroad for who I had run a set of boiler calculations and prepared the Form 4 (Boiler registration document) on their locomotive some few years ago got in touch with me. The boiler was due for a complete inspection and new tubes. They had contracted with a Code boiler shop, not that the Code shop has boilermakers experienced with locomotive boilers and riveted construction. The Code shop was close by, and they felt having a Code shop (having an ASME "R" Stamp for the repair of boilers and pressure vessels), this shop would have proper quality assurance and quality control in place. The code shop called me, we spoke at some length about past work done on that boiler, and they said they'd send me the latest ultrasonic thickness readings and photos of some questionable areas of the boiler. Instead of the usual ringbinder with a "map" of the boiler and readings recorded on paper, I got a flash drive. It took me two days to figure out how to get that to work and open. Piece of cake once I nerved up to stick it into what looked like the right female connector on the back of our Apple. Pain in the a-- as far as having to work off stuff on the computer vs on paper. But, I know the boiler and have the original calculations I ran, and the digital photos do show some nasty looking areas. Old pad-welded repairs and some partial corner replacements in the firebox. Murphy's law is such that I will likely wind up making the trip out to the locomotive in the next few weeks. Of course, it is in the coldest part of winter in the coldest part of NY State and nothing seems colder than the steel of a dead boiler in the dead of winter. Trust me on that. The only thing colder than a dead locomotive boiler in a drafty engine house in winter weather is having to crawl into the boiler aboard a Great Lakes ore boat in winter layup (iced in). Done that as well.

    OK, getting to your photos. Whoever built the boiler went about making the front tube sheet in an interesting way. It appears they faced off and turned the tube sheet from some hefty round stock. Possibly, the person making the boiler did not have any pressure vessel grade steel plate of appropriate thickness to make the tube sheet. He may have taken a thicker piece of plate, rough-cut it to an oversized blank and drilled a hole in the blank in the center of the disc. He then made a lathe mandrel with a collar and nut, and turned the outer diameter of the blank to correct diameter. Once that was done, the blank was faced to required thickness.

    The boiler tubes appear to have a heavier wall than would actually be needed. My guess here is that whomever was building the boiler may have used a common "iron pipe size" of pipe for the boiler tubes. However, with limited space for expanding the tubes, seamless drawn-over-mandrel steel tubing may have been used for the tubes. This would allow the tubes to be put into reamed holes in the sheets with a good close fit.

    How they intended to expand the tubes into the sheets is something else to mull over. In the smokebox, expanding the tubes with a small tube roller, or driving in a tapered drift would be no problem. In the firebox, expanding the tubes into the firebox tube sheet would be quite difficult due to limited space. Possibly, the smokebox ends of the tubes were rolled into the front tube sheet. Once this was done, a tapered drift was inserted in the firebox ends of the tubes. This body of this drift was drilled axially through for a steel "drawbar". This drawbar was nothing more than a rod threaded at each end. A nut was made up on the end that came through the drift in the firebox (facing the inner door sheet). The end of the rod sticking out the tube in the smokebox got a similar tapered drift, drilled thru axially. A nut was then made up on the smokebox end of the "drawbar". A wrench had to be used on the nuts at each end of the drawbar to force the drifts into the tubes. Since no force from the drawbar was put on the tube sheets, there was no danger of deforming the tubesheets. The tube ends would have had to have been annealed "dead soft" for this method of expanding the tubes to work. The tubes would have to also have been a good close fit in the tube holes in the sheets since this method would not get much expansion on the tubes. This would make using drawn-over-mandrel steel tube for the boiler tubes more likely than steel pipe.

    The pipe in photo 4 is what is known as a "dry pipe" on locomotive boilers. It's purpose is to take steam from up in the steam dome, well above the "releasing zone" where the water in the boiler is "flashing" to steam. In this area at the operating water level, a lot of airborne droplets of water are constantly being kicked up by the "flashing". In addition, as the locomotive runs over the track and encounters gradients, the water level in the boiler will follow the gradient of the track, so having the steam taken off the highest point in the boiler minimizes the changes of water making it out of the boiler with the steam. The dry pipe, typically, will have an elbow "looking up" and a short pipe "riser" sticking up high in the dome. On the majority of US locomotives, the throttle was inside the steam dome, and the mouth of the "riser" on the dry pipe was the seat of the throttle valve. A linkage worked the throttle valve disc and the throttle rod passed through the water space of the boiler, above the crownsheet, and came out the backhead of the boiler. A stuffing box was fitted on the backhead where the throttle rod came out of the boiler.
    It was a simple system. Throttles mounted externally (in the smokebox) came later and were used on heavier engines running superheated steam for the most part.

    The dry pipe on your Hudson's boiler was welded to the front tube sheet, and the weld "ringing" the dry pipe was being "flushed off"- made flush with the face of the front tube sheet. In the era before small hand-held die grinders and similar tools, chances are this was gone by chipping with a hammer and cape chisel or cold chisel, followed by hand scraping. No way to get in there with a file. Of, possibly, whomever was building the boiler had made some kind of facing cutter (as was used for re-seating globe valves) and was going to turn it with a ratchet drill or hand brace.

    I do not recall seeing a pad for a stuffing box on the backhead of this boiler. Possibly, the plan was to go with a smokebox throttle and bring the operating mechanism outside the boiler. This may account for the heavier front tube sheet, to provide enough meat for tapping holes for a flanged connection from the dry pipe to a smokebox mounted throttle.

    I've been inside plenty of locomotive boilers with dome throttles. Usually, to get inside the boiler, the dome throttle has to be removed first. The elbow and riser/throttle valve are connected to the dry pipe with a bolted connection. If you check the steam dome on your Hudson's boiler, see if it has a bolted cover. In pipefitting, we could call this a blind flange, but on a locomotive boiler, it is a "dome cover". If the dome is made without a bolted cover, i.e.-having a solid "cap"- then the throttle was going to be in the smokebox.

    I've wriggled into locomotive boilers when the tubes were still in place to get as-built measurements on brace rods and get an idea of condition of braces and some of the stays. It is not a pleasant experience and you have to be fairly flexible and not claustrophobic.

    Possibly, Martin S. Lewis's book will shed some light on this Hudson and whether it was to have a dome throttle vs a smokebox throttle. Either way, the face of the front tube sheet had to be made flat and true for a flanged/gasketed joint. If the dome throttle were used, then a pair of steam leads to the steam chests on the cylinders would be made up to the dry pipe.

    In looking at the smokebox, I was surprised to see that the stack extends down with no "waisting" and no entry flare. The steam chests of the cylinders will have exhaust nozzles aimed up the center of the stack. To get good induced draft, the entry into the stack pipe is flared, and usually waists down to form a venturi.
    Possibly, the stack pipe (sometimes called the "petticoat pipe") in the smokebox was unfinished at the point this boiler was left at.

    This boiler was "well along" in its construction, and gives quite the clues as to who built it and the time period. We know from the on-line information and video about Mr. Shattock that his actual home shop was minimal. He had a small Atlas lathe and a drill press and reportedly never had any other machine tools. To machine the front tube sheet on a lathe, it had to have been a larger/heavier lathe than what Mr. Shattock had in his home shop. The type of "development" of the plates to form the boiler sheets and the welding done to assemble that boiler all have me convinced someone other than Mr. Shattock built that boiler.

    I also was taught "old school" mechanical drawing as well as freehand technical drawing including perspective sketching. Four years of it at Brooklyn Technical HS in the 60's. Teachers never stopped hollering and marking my drawings in red with notes like "Lettering" and "Clean up Line Work", or "Line weights". To this day, I get a great deal of satisfaction out of making a good drawing, and in particular, freehand sketches. Some nights, sitting at the kitchen table, I will sketch and design stuff I will never build, running numbers and working out designs of tooling, piping, or anything else that comes to mind. I still think in fractions and go up and back to decimals automatically. Again, "old school", having to know decimal equivalents "off the top of my head" in HS. Recently, I was introduced to "Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing" in a course. It was hard for an old dinosaur like me to wrap my head around the new standards for drawings and dimensioning. I am used to what people in the industry sometimes refer to as "linear" dimensioning, and plenty of notes on a drawing to make sure nothing is left to chance. I also enjoy lettering, having had it very nearly beaten into me in HS and by my father.

    Building a working steam locomotive is a challenge in terms of tolerance vs. "running fits and clearances". About the only parts that have to made to close tolerances are the valve motion, cylinders, pistons and valves. Make the side rods and running gear to those same close tolerances and the locomotive will not run easily on the track. Determining the fits and clearances on a locomotive's running gear and side rods was a bit of a black art. Locomotives with plain bearings in the rods tended to clank even when fresh out of the works. A model locomotive, being small, is subject to the same issues as a full sized one, so some looser fits and clearances in the side rods and running gear is required. Martin S. Lewis did not spec tolerances for good reason. It was a matter of fitting the parts and opening or loosening fits as needed to get a free-running engine.


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