Any Brown and Sharpe owners out there?...need help assembling No 0 Universal Head

imported_eric_h · Mar 15, 2021

I posted this in another thread so admins don't kill me as i don't know how to merge threads. Hopefully this will get a little more visibility as its own separate thread.
For the readers: when i took this thing apart a long time ago i was not good at taking any pictures of how this thing went back together. That is machine restoration 101 so i messed up there. After inspecting and cleaning im putting things back together and it seems the PO may have had this thing apart and put some parts in here that may not be OEM. It is hard for me to determine from the BandS manual if the parts i have are correct.

My question and favor is to ask:
1. Anyone knows how this thing goes back together?
2. Are the parts i have questions about correct OEM pieces?
3. Is my layout assembly order correct?
4. Not sure where the bronze big washer goes as i don't see it in the diagrams list?
Part numbers i have questions are 3038, 3031, 3057. Btw i know i have one of the 3050 lock rings missing. is that a big deal?
thanks in advance and if there are more detailed pictures needed please let me know and i will provide.

imported_eric_h · Mar 15, 2021

Other pictures with first one being one of the 3038 washers??? It is smaller in diameter than the other 3038 washer AND it has a raised ring edge at the ID, the second picture is part 3057.

riftware · Mar 15, 2021

I think your question mark piece is 3018? I don't have one just tried to match your parts to diagram

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

jim rozen · Mar 15, 2021

I think your diagram does not quite match your machine - the cutter spindle in the diagram seems to have opposed radial ball bearings, while yours has a front tapered roller bearing in front (to take the thrust load all by itself) and a cylindrical roller bearing at the rear. This might have been an engineering upgrade during the production of this machine, or maybe the diagram is not quite the correct one?

Devil's always in the details here so the exact number and location of washers, spacers and so on could be subtly different than your picture.

imported_eric_h · Mar 15, 2021

Jim yes i believe u are right that the tapered timken bearings on the spindle were an upgrade perhaps done at a later time. The diagram shows what i believe were NewDeparture bearings that had a flange (parts 3052 and 3053) on them similar to the ones that are numbered 3039. ND bearings i priced were 4-600 dollars for the pair so i can understand why they possible swapped them out on the spindle for the timken tapered roller bearings. I would assume though that since 3052 and 3053 are numbered differently they are not the same bearing but different ones. I have both bearings numbered 3039 and they are the same ND bearing.

The mill is from the late 30's so some upgrades may have happened along its life like those bearings but not sure and Im not sure it was the RIGHT upgrade....

imported_eric_h · Mar 15, 2021

riftware said:
I think your question mark piece is 3018? I don't have one just tried to match your parts to diagram

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Riftware...which question mark piece are talking about exactly cause i have a few of them pictured. 3018 has a very large OD to fit the spindle housing and i none of my pieces with questions marks come close to that size.

jim rozen · Mar 15, 2021

imported_eric_h said:
Jim yes i believe u are right that the tapered timken bearings on the spindle were an upgrade perhaps done at a later time. The diagram shows what i believe were NewDeparture bearings that had a flange (parts 3052 and 3053) on them similar to the ones that are numbered 3039. ND bearings i priced were 4-600 dollars for the pair so i can understand why they possible swapped them out on the spindle for the timken tapered roller bearings. I would assume though that since 3052 and 3053 are numbered differently they are not the same bearing but different ones. I have both bearings numbered 3039 and they are the same ND bearing.

The mill is from the late 30's so some upgrades may have happened along its life like those bearings but not sure and Im not sure it was the RIGHT upgrade....

The tapered roller bearing can take a very large axial force, much larger than the (probably radial) ND ball bearings in the original setup. Also the radial pair was being run in an approximation of angular contact mode, which meant precision spacers to set up the preload. The tapered roller one, not so fussy.

I guess my point was that trying to make a 1:1 correspondance between numbers on the diagram and the parts you have on hand might lead you down a wrong path because of the engineering changes in the bearing setup.

The bronze washer for example, probably is original based on the female spline. If you ar lucky the shaft diameters are all different so you can sort out the parts that go with which shaft based on things like spline shape or diameter.

I rebuilt a Pratt and Whitney universal head like yours, and took about a zillion photos as it came apart. 1) I needed them, and 2) like yours, I can't see how a head like that could be sold for any affordable price based on the precision bearings and gears in it!

jim rozen · Mar 15, 2021

Double check me on this:

The machine spindle has gear 3042 fitted, which drives 3027 in the head (which in your photo, has the boss hidden underneath?) which in turn drives the shaft with the spiral bevel gear integral at the other end.

The spiral bevel gear drives a mating spiral 3037 gear. The factory diagram is a bit confusing because that 3037 gear mounts to the shaft alongside it, 3040, which has a straight bevel gear at the far end and three bearings on it. Shaft 3040 connects the two parts of the head that pivot when the universal feature is employed (tilts head spindle in/out).

Straight bevel gear integral to 3040 shaft mates to the gear 3056 on the cutter spindle, 3058. All the spacers and bits on the cutter shaft 3058 will look different than the diagram because of the bearing re-design.

gary s moore · Mar 16, 2021

i know this will not help now but in the future dont take it apart till you are ready to repair and put back together. when you take it apart lay all parts out in order. clean and inspect and put back in order one at a time. then there is no nead to remember where or how it goes back.

jim rozen · Mar 16, 2021

Reminds me of a WW2 optical rangefinder that I took apart when I was about 12. Valiant effort at re-assembly but it was never the same after that.

Universal head like that isn't that complicated, might take a few wrong starts but he'll get it.

imported_eric_h · Mar 18, 2021

jim rozen said:
Double check me on this:

The machine spindle has gear 3042 fitted, which drives 3027 in the head (which in your photo, has the boss hidden underneath?) which in turn drives the shaft with the spiral bevel gear integral at the other end.

The spiral bevel gear drives a mating spiral 3037 gear. The factory diagram is a bit confusing because that 3037 gear mounts to the shaft alongside it, 3040, which has a straight bevel gear at the far end and three bearings on it. Shaft 3040 connects the two parts of the head that pivot when the universal feature is employed (tilts head spindle in/out).

Straight bevel gear integral to 3040 shaft mates to the gear 3056 on the cutter spindle, 3058. All the spacers and bits on the cutter shaft 3058 will look different than the diagram because of the bearing re-design.

Jim i thnk u have the flow correct. After talking to a buddy on another forum and who is pretty knowledgeable of BandS stuff, determined that the wide bushing 3057 and parts 3038 are NOT OEM. Side note the integrated bevel gear on spindle 3040 and on the tooling spindle 3058 show signs of misalligned gearing or bad spacing between them as the teeth are pretty banged up.

He concluded that since the two 3038 pieces were hacked the spacing was knocked off between the gears on 3040 and 3058. In order to correct the spacing the PO hacked in a very oversized 3057 bushing. Which 3057 from our calculations should be about 1/8 inch instead of almost a 1/4 inch that it is now.

The 'mystery' bronze splined washer thing was actually determined to go against 3027 as a thrust washer between the gear and the 3028 bearing.

I am now in the process of finding out the correct thickness of the 3038 pieces and 3057.

The saga continues....lol and btw thanks for chiming in. the comments about after market bearings changing some spacing was a real good call as i think u are right.

jim rozen · Mar 18, 2021

imported_eric_h said:
... Side note the integrated bevel gear on spindle 3040 and on the tooling spindle 3058 show signs of misalligned gearing or bad spacing between them as the teeth are pretty banged up.
...

This actually has me perplexed - the cutter spindle and so on. I cannot figure out how the bevel drive gear is located along the shaft, it
almost seems that it can only seat at the bottom of the splines on that shaft, which cannot be correct. The spacer you show that has the
?? marks on it, would probably be sliding back and forth between the gear and the backside of the tapered roller bearing.

My crazy guess is there should be another cylindrical spacer between the tapered roller bearing and the bevel gear to provide a positive location for that gear, with the correct engagement to the mate. Also without that spacer the gear will be too far on the shaft and the nut that holds
the straight roller bearing on the backside will never tighten up correctly.

The other perplexing thing is if I inspect the original configuration of that cutter spindle, in the manual diagram, I see the same problem. I can't figure out what locates that gear positively on the shaft.

imported_eric_h · Mar 23, 2021

Jim that spacer hits a step up on the spline so it can't go any further forward and keeps that gear locked in place on the spline with the help of the lock nut 3054.

jim rozen · Mar 23, 2021

Ah, missed the step - it does look as though the bevel gears are not fully engaged in mesh, based on the wear pattern there.

imported_eric_h · Mar 23, 2021

YES!!! good eyes...the gear is gnarly on 3040 as well because the alignment was not right. That spacer which has the question marks is too wide since the two non OEM washers 3038 are not sized right. i guess they had to push that spindle gear back away from 3040 because 3040 was dropped down too far due to the incorrct sized 3038 washers im guessing.

donie · Mar 25, 2021

The problem with Brown&Sharpe mills is, they continually changed the machines and attachments, and there is a big problem with finding manuals and drawings,

imported_eric_h · Dec 14, 2022

agreed this has been like chasing the wind. however, i found someone in the uk that has a mill head like mine(but still different..alas) and he helped me narrow in on some of the dimensions with the spacers,etc. its gonna take a bit of assembly/dissassembly/assembly/dissassembly to get the teeth to match up. hpefly they arent toast to the point where i cant use them. we shall see.

ratbldr427 · Dec 18, 2022

The spiral bevel gear and pinion would normally have the pinion depth and clearance scribed on them as they are usually lapped together after machining.That would be controlled by shims or washers.

Any Brown and Sharpe owners out there?...need help assembling No 0 Universal Head

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