What's new
What's new

Anyone ever bought a machine that was grouted in place?

marka12161

Stainless
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Location
Oswego, NY USA
How hard is it to clean up once the machine has been pulled out of the grout? Seems like a bit pf elbow grease and maybe a good chisel is all it would take assume you can gt enough room to work yes?
 
I’ve never moved a machine tool that was grouted in place, however I have moved a Diesel engine that was grouted in place. Once it was unbolted from the floor and I got a jack under it it lifted right up. The concrete doesn’t seem to bond to the cast iron. It’s job is to take up the unevenness between the machine base and floor.
 
We used to clean up shovels with concrete on them by soaking in a bucket of cheap vinegar. Don't know how it would work on non-shrink grout.
 
I did once, real pia, new cinn 16 heavy shaper grouted in place in navy yard, had to jack hammer it out, then the navy was pssd about the shape the floor was in. Had to hire a firm to grind the floor flat... Still have the shaper never used it yet...Phil
 
Grouting of machinery (including machine tools, as well as engines, turbines, pumps, generators) and structural steel baseplates is done to provide as near-perfect full bearing contact between the machine or structural steel members, and their concrete foundation (or floor slab).

Properly done grouting should only come up to the level of the bottom surface of a machinery base or sole plate (for things like turbines, generators, or pumps or engines). A common mistake made when machinery is grouted is to place the grout so it comes up above the bottom surface of the machinery base and surrounds the base. People think this improves the grouting job, or have some other cockeyed reasons for doing it.

Machinery is usually grouted using a 'cementitious non shrink grout'. This is a hydraulic cement with fine sand and possibly an admixture to cause the grout to expand slightly as it sets. Plainly put, non shrink grout is usually a lot harder than regular concrete. If a grouting job is done properly, the top of the concrete floor slab or foundation will have been chipped off to a depth of about 1/2" to expose the aggregate in the concrete and get a good 'interlocking bond' with the grout.

In order to remove a machinery base that was grouted in place, you need to determine how the machinery base was initially levelled. Some types of machinery will have levelling or jacking screws. These are coated with grease and used to level the machinery prior to grouting. Once the grout has set, these levelling screws are usually slacked off so the grout carries the full weight of the machinery and no 'point loads' from the jacking or levelling screws occur. The other method of levelling is to use steel plates and shims between the top of the foundation or floor slab and the machinery base. Typically, plates are cut from 1/2" or thicker steel plate and set on a 'pad" of grout mixed to a 'dry pack' consistency. The plates are then tapped with a hammer to bring them to level. Once the grout under those plates has set, the machine is landed on them and fine levelling with shims is done. When the fine levelling is accomplished, the actual grouting under the base is then done.

You need to determine if the machine is sitting on steel plates (we sometimes called them 'sub soles') and shims vs sitting only on grout. If you start chipping grout and the machine is sitting only on grout, you can wind up with it coming down on you in a hurry.

If you determine the machine is sitting only on grout, you will need to either install the jacking screws and crank them so they bear on the foundation or floor slab, or chip out some of the grout and pack in steel wedges or shims temporarily.

Non shrink grout has a tendency to bond quite well to rough cast iron machinery bases. To remove grout, the ideal tool is an air chipping gun and bull point chisel. Next best thing is something like a big "Hilti" hammer drill which can be used as a power hammer, with a bull point. Non shrink grout is tenacious stuff, and depending on the size of the machinery to be busted loose from it, you could be awhile and wear yourself out with a 3 lb drilling hammer (short handled hand sledge used to drive star drills and bull points) and a bull point.

The other unknown is how much grout is going to come along for the ride in the machinery base. Grout can be placed in two ways: flowable or packable mix. Flowable is what the name says. Tight forms are built around the machinery base, usually about an inch or two bigger on all sides. Grout is mixed in a flowable consistency and poured into the forms. The grout will 'self level', and sometimes, people will place the grout a bit higher than the bottom of the machinery base. This puts some grout inside the base a bit higher as well. When the grout has its initial set, the forms are often stripped and the grout is "cut back" using steel patching trowels. The cutting back lowers the level of the grout to the same elevation as the bottom surface of the machinery base, and often, a slight pitch is put on the top of the grout to shed oil or water. Grout remaining inside a machinery base can put up a bit of a fight as far as getting the machinery base to part ways with the concrete floor or foundation. I've used steel wedges or "porta power" low profile hydraulic rams for this purpose, along with a few shots from a sledge once the jacks or wedges were holding strain.

When you get the machinery base up, you may well find plenty of grout came along for the ride. This has to be chipped out. Non shrink grout and rough cast iron will form a really solid bond, so some work with a bull point is expectable.

I've been around a LOT of non shrink grouting of machinery, turbines, engines, generators, and structural steel. I've also been around jobs where we had to remove similar items which were sitting on good non shrink grouting. Some of the non-shrink grouts are non metallic and some are metallic (often using iron filings or similar to create the expansion when rusting occurs in the grout mix). If you run into metallic non shrink grout, you have a bit tougher job to bust it out.

Lastly, on some machinery, to dampen vibration, a secondary grouting was often done. This was a grouting to fill hollow machinery bases to add mass and add dampening. Some machinery bases actually have round holes for pouring in this secondary grouting. I've done the secondary grouting on fabricated steel pump bases as well as on large engine bedplates. Fortunately, I was not the guy who had to remove any of that equipment. If you run into something with secondary grouting filling a hollow base, you will have a lot more weight to handle and a lot tougher job to bust it out. We usually mixed what I called a "slush grout" for that purpose, something like 4 parts neat Portland cement to 5 parts sand, mixed to a flowable consistency. Non shrink properties were not needed. On some jobs, we used the cheaper non-shrink 'construction grouts' rather than the higher priced non shrink "precision" grouts used on machinery sole plates and bases. Either way, once the bases were filled with grout, we used to joke that it would take a small tactical airstrike to get them parted off their foundations.

When we set the big LeBlond lathes, I designed the mountings. I went with 'sub sole' plates cut from 1" A-36 plate and landed on dry-packed non shrink grout. Anchor bolts came right thru the center of the sub soles and the lathe was landed on them. We then did the precision levelling and used shims to bring things to final level.
After that, we used a dry pack of non shrink grout under the lathe's bases. We did not do any secondary grouting, and I made sure to not have the grout come any higher than the bottom surface of the lathe's base castings.

If you can lay hands on an electric hammer such as a bigger Hilti drill with a bull point, you will likely have all you need to bust out grout without killing yourself swinging a drilling hammer in close quarters. I'd make sure to bring some steel wedges and a good beater (aka BFH, or a 12-16 lb sledge) to pop the machinery base up and break the bond with the grouting.

Good non shrink grout that has been properly placed (foundation concrete chipped off and soaked before the grouting was placed) and properly cured will be a different animal than ordinary concrete or mortar. It will give you a run for your money.
 
If you are buying for removal ,I always get a written agreement on the company letterhead over what happens to the floor .....generally ,removal of the machine ,no floor rectification or compensation ,what so ever.And be sure they also disconnect the machine and make safe the wiring to whatever code may apply.....The big risk is some character will be standing there saying "nah,dont worry about that ,nah ,we re gunna redo the floor anyway ,nah we' re demolishing the building"..Then get a demand for a new floor from the company afterwards.
 
Sometime in the early 60's we purchased a Cincinnati Dries and Crump 1200 ton press break.
It sat on over 30 inches of concrete base that was some what less then completely level.
The company that set the unit played with the jack screws on the unit until they where happy with the overall levelness of the break. After that all set points where grouted beneath the pads as they said the jack screws were only to set initial level then grout to support the load. The machine never broke out the grout, although it is hydraulic and very slow moving.
 
My Fosdick radial drill was grouted to the floor and as said above, it came loose, but the grout stayed in the base. Once I had it home, I just put a prybar in the slots in the base and popped the grout right out.
 
I never liked to see machine tools grouted down if they were the type that are liable to need re-levelling from time to time. Anything with a long bed for instance, long lathes, planers, hor bores etc. If you don't want crap getting under the bed knock in some thin lengths of timber.

I did once lift a milling machine with the overhead crane that had been grouted in. It just came straight up off the concrete, it left behind a long dead hedgehog that had been entombed underneath the machine. It must have been there for years, it was sort of mummified. That was one really unlucky hedgehog.

Regards Tyrone.
 
Last edited:
no kidding! What on earth was it thinking? How did it get in there? What a mystery :)

I can only think that when the machine was being installed the hedgehog got in the shop overnight and hid under the machine. Then the day shift came in and grouted in the mill, entombing the poor thing.

I had another one like that on a big planer when a squirrel fell down ventilation ducting from the motor/generator set. It fell in from outside and couldn't climb back up the 20 ft of smooth sided ducting. We found it's body when the motor/generator set wouldn't start. The little bugger had eaten the insulation on the windings.

Regards Tyrone.
 
I've set a couple of large machines where we grouted the jacks, not the machine. The big horizontal had, iirc, 44 jacks. These jacks were made with a taper between the halves and a screw to slide the top half on the taper to raise or lower the machine. There was a hole through the bottom half, and a slot through the top. The bottom had 4 tapped holes for supports, iirc 3/8. The machine was set in place on the jacks, with the jacks supported by 4 3/8 screws each. After rough leveling, I made a wooden box around each jack and filled it with non-shrinking grout. As Joe mentions, this grout was about 10%-20% steel shot. After the grout cured the machine was final leveled and nuts were tightened on the hold downs. This was a 45,000# machine on about a 200,000# foundation.
 
My toilet in my bathroom at home was grouted to the floor. Piece of cake, popped right up. Don’t let them scare you!

(Sarcasm)

Edit: I know what precision grout is, I was making a sarcastic joke that apparently didn’t land very well even though I added the word “sarcasm” to farther emphasize the joke originally
Thanks all for the information tho it’s always good to learn regardless of time of day.
Joe Michaels thanks for the refresher course I do appreciate whenever anyone takes time to converse with me
 
Last edited:
Bob:

Don't confuse tile grout with non-shrink precision grout. Two very different animals. Non shrink precision grout is made from hydraulic cement, fine sharp sand, and various admixtures to increase expansion as it sets, and often, a 'plasticizer' to improve how the grout flow or is packed to place it. Non shrink grouts tend to bond solidly with rough castings and rough concrete. Tile grout is basically a white Portland type cement, and may have very fine white sand if used on tile with joints wider than about 1/8". Tile grout also has nothing much to bond to, as it is run into the joints between tiles, or used to bed a toilet on a thin bedding of it. Different animals altogether.

Most non-shrink grouts will have a 3-day strength (compressive strength) of 5,000 psi or better, vs concrete which may have a 7 day strength of 3,000 or 3,500 psi for most common jobs. I like to get a bag of non-shrink grout and use it for patching mortar around the house as it bonds tenaciously if the concrete or stone substrate is chipped off and well cleaned. Where I punched thru the foundation wall above the grade line for a propane line, I did the patching in with the non-shrink grout and a bonding agent. Cut the edges of the busted concrete with a masonry saw, chipped out, and then parged on a stiff packable mix of the non shrink grout. I've also used it to repoint some stone masonry on our entry steps and it has held up with no problems when exposed to freeze-thaw and rocksalt/ice melting agents. Cement mortar crumbled away in a few years when exposed to those conditions. The stuff is some hard, so once it has been tooled and allowed to set, it's there to stay.

Consider yourself well treated if your toilet was grouted with tile grout. If it was grouted with non-shrink precision grout, you'd have busted the toilet bowl getting it parted from the floor.

Many years ago, when I was young, single and absolutely wild and uncontrollable, I put some of the Five Star Grout to a somewhat questionable purpose. I was working on a powerplant jobsite as a mechanical engineer and had gotten my PE License. Weekends, I did what I pleased, which varied from firing a steam locomotive when needed, helping my neighbors in their machine shop, or riding my motorcycle with whomever and wherever, roaming far afield and letting things happen as they might. Some of the company I was keeping was less than good, and I was called on the carpet at the jobsite and told to change my ways. I was told there was to be a golf tournament, and that I ought to take up golf and stop riding motorcycles and running with the types I had been running with. This got my back up, and I retorted that I was on the job to be an engineer, and as such, expected to be judged on the merits of my work and conduct on the job, and what I did on my own time was my own business. I got told I had better get in line with the program and take up golf. I saw people from the field office taking off all kinds of time to set up the golf tournament, and heard them raving about the brass who were coming to it from the regional office, and about the golf pro who would also be there. If I took a few extra minutes at lunch, I heard about it, but the golf tournament was apparently a sacred cow. Needless to say, I was not going to take up golf, nor was I going to stop my riding motorcycles and partying and running with the questionable people I was running with. Life was too wild and too much fun, and I was having a delayed adolescence or something on that order. Walking around with a bunch of suck-asses on a golf course was not something I remotely saw myself doing. I was going to sink or swim on my own abilities as an engineer, and did not see where golf had any bearing on that.

After yet another rebuke about my conduct off site and being told I would do well to take up golf, I'd had enough. My brain kicked into double overdrive. I went to the biker bar where some of the guys I rode with hung out. I told them what my problem was, and we hatched a plan to fix the golf tournament really good. Two older superintendents on the jobsite who also had no use for golf got into the plot and were my alibi. Add a couple of bikers and the chemistry was there for mayhem to result. I got some of that good Five Star grout from the jobsite, courtesy of the turbine erecting super. I was loaned a dirt bike, since I did not own one. We cut the lugs on the rear tires on the dirt bikes with a hacksaw so the lugs were nice and sharp like milling cutters. We taped the tanks of the bikes with duct tape to cover any identification of color, make or model, and we taped the headlights so there was only a thin cats-eye slit, like a military blackout light on a vehicle. We took the plates off the bikes and took the bulbs out of the tail lamps. A van dropped us at the golf course way late into the night before the tournament. Each of us had a knapsack with a plastic bag of Five Star Grout and some canteens of water.

Three of us raced around the greens, throwing rooster tails of earth. When we came to a cup and flag, we put in a couple of handfuls of Five Star Grout and added water from canteens. Mixed it with the flag's post and left the flags in place in the cups. Rode off the golf course in a very short time, onto a powerline right of way. Rode the right of way for a bit and were picked back up by the van. All of us wore the same denim jackets and jeans and full-face helmets painted rattle-can flat black.

Come Monday morning at the jobsite, I heard all about the disaster at the golf course. Aside from the torn up greens, people tried to still play golf, and when they got to the cups, could not get the flags out of them. I was asked about my own whereabouts, but my alibis piped up for me. Some sort of investigation was mounted but it went nowhere as tons of young men had dirt bikes and rode all kinds of trails and wild behavior was not an uncommon thing. As for the golf tournament, I did not see that the outcome was any different than it would have been had the course been playable. The end result was the same: the suck-asses from the jobsite sucked up to the brass from corporate in the clubhouse just that much sooner without having to go play golf beforehand.

The powers that were and local law enforcement never did find out who pulled off that caper. The greenskeeper conveniently offered his opinion that the flags were 'cemented into the cups- must be Waterplug'. 'Waterplug' is a packaged hydraulic cement sold in hardware stores and building supplies, which anyone could have gotten easily. That widened the field and took the heat off suspects from our jobsite. That 5 star grout did the trick handily with a fast set time and plenty of bond strength. As for me, I rolled into the parking lot on the job that Monday morning on my Airhead BMW wearing a leather jacket and managed to keep a straight face and act surprised at the news about the golf tournament that wasn't. The old superintendents knew, and we all laughed good about it.

That was well over 40 years ago, so if there was a statute of limitations for trashing golf courses, I am sure it has long run out. I have never hit a golf ball in my life and don't plan on it. People ask what I do in 'retirement' and my answer is: same thing I did in my working life: Practice engineering, welding inspection, machine work, and whatever else comes along. People ask what my hobbies are and get the same answer. I am still riding my old BMW Airhead motorcycle, often with my wife of 38+ years packing on the 'pillion'. Wife knows my past, and knows my buddies and I still joke about pulling off similar capers, remembering our wilder younger days.
 
My 24x144 ATW lathe was grouted in. All 3 pedestals/feet came loose just fine, but there was leftover on each that I had to get clean before I could set it at my place. It wasn't a terrible job, but it did take more effort than I had hoped. It will not be grouted in my shop.
I also helped a buddy move a #2 horizontal that had been grouted in and it was a bear. It didn't come clean and it was a pain to get any bars under it. Once we got the grout out of the way we could then move it fine, it added 1.5 hrs to the job.
 








 
Back
Top