Appears to be a Horizontal Mill Arbor... but for what machine?

Scott(GA) · Jan 17, 2018

I recently purchased a Delta-Rockwell 11-inch Metal Lathe via Craigslist. Inside the cabinet - along with other items - was this box.

The object inside is 16-1/2 inches from end to end.

The diameter of the shaft with the spacers removed is 1". The spacer's outside diameter is 1-9/16" .

The thread inside this taper is 1/2"-13. I measure the wide part of the taper at 1.23". Most anything I've seen on the interweb that looks something like this is usually 1.25 as a spec.

The only marks I've found on this item - or the box - is this "21" stamped inside the flange.

I've been told it appears to be an arbor for a Horizontal Mill and that is certainly what it favors. However, I haven't seen an example on the internet that has a taper on both ends.

Regarding the seller being asked for details... I am confident he would have no idea based on my interaction with him during the purchase.

Anybody have any thoughts?

Scott

johnoder · Jan 17, 2018

Anybody have any thoughts?

About the right size for 30 taper, but lacking the usual cylindrical extension for the tapped hole in such as NMTB 30

On Edit since there seems to be confusion

Notched flange is drive or spindle end

Usual arbor nut with wrench flats - and thread for that arbor nut - are other end with the tapered spigot

Monarchist · Jan 17, 2018

Scott(GA) said:
I've been told it appears to be an arbor for a Horizontal Mill and that is certainly what it favors. However, I haven't seen an example on the internet that has a taper on both ends.

That MT-looking end unscrews, does it not?

Looks to me as if someone took partly stock arbor / parts and partly DIY to gin-up an arbour that could be used with either NMTB, chuck jaws on flange, or Morse driving-end.

It's the sort of kit some PO - probably an earlier owner than the most-recent seller - with a small mill might have adapted so his lathe - with longer on-axis to the arbour travel than the average mill - could also serve as a hor-bore imitation.

Guessing, of course. What else can we do?

But I'd bet YOU could use it that way, if need be.

L Vanice · Jan 17, 2018

The Hardinge TM and UM mills' overarm ball bearing has a tapered ID. The OEM 1" and 7/8" arbors are 5C on the drive end and have a male taper to fit the overarm bearing on the opposite end. Perhaps other horizontal mills also have tapered bores in their overarm bearings.

Larry

Monarchist · Jan 17, 2018

L Vanice said:
The Hardinge TM and UM mills' overarm ball bearing has a tapered ID. The OEM 1" and 7/8" arbors are 5C on the drive end and have a male taper to fit the overarm bearing on the opposite end. Perhaps other horizontal mills also have tapered bores in their overarm bearings.

Larry

Could was.

My Burke #4 over-arm has a shortish but clearly removable / replaceable dead-center in it. Haven't has cause yet to pull it, but it looks to to be a truncated 2 MT.

MT isn't as "hard locking" a taper as a B&S, but neither one makes a good plain bearing. At all.

There'd have to be a bronze bushing MT OD, straight-bore ID, ELSE a means to mount a roller bearing.

Mebfab · Jan 17, 2018

The arbor, the box..... Bet european origin.

Monarchist · Jan 17, 2018

Mebfab said:
The arbor, the box..... Bet european origin.

Bet? OK. Half a box of going-stale donuts sez DIY, with care, rather. Exposed plywood end grain and that reddish material would embarrass a Europompositean Kraftstmann.

MrStretch · Jan 17, 2018

Be a pretty crazy European craftsman to make an arbor with a 1/2" - 13 thread.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that "back in the day"accessories for nice machine tools were often in wooden boxes.

Scott(GA) · Jan 17, 2018

Someone on another forum said the box reminded them of "...Bison arbors made in Poland now sold by Toolmex..."

A few more pictures...

The Spacers are manufactured differently that I would have thought. I hadn't examined them closely and I just thought they would be a constant dimension internally.

Picture of the box without the arbor inside. There is a picture to follow but after I posted this image I got a "Max Picture per Post" message.

Scott(GA) · Jan 17, 2018

It appears there was a marking of some sort inside the box... someone had penciled "B". Probably nothing but...

Scott

Monarchist · Jan 17, 2018

Scott(GA) said:
View attachment 218111

It appears there was a marking of some sort inside the box... someone had penciled "B". Probably nothing but...

Scott

As in "Bottom" when DIY sawdust making and the Top has been ID'ed as having a nicer grain, etc.

Besides the exposed plys (an invitation for damage or entry of moisture) - those red strips look suspiciously like Pirelli Belting - the sort one would salvage out from under the cushions of cheaply made furniture once it starts to sag into a different kind of "ass hole", two words, and literally.

Hence my willingness to take the grand risk of betting those almost-stale only-GD-Entenmann's-anyway donut-shaped-objects. No shame. Mebfab already KNOWS I am a cheapskate.

Monarchist · Jan 17, 2018

Scott(GA) said:
Someone on another forum said the box reminded them of "...Bison arbors made in Poland now sold by Toolmex..."

A few more pictures...

View attachment 218106

View attachment 218107

View attachment 218108

View attachment 218109

The Spacers are manufactured differently that I would have thought. I hadn't examined them closely and I just thought they would be a constant dimension internally.

View attachment 218110

Picture of the box without the arbor inside. There is a picture to follow but after I posted this image I got a "Max Picture per Post" message.

The spacers look "commercial" though not necessarily originally intended for milling arbour use. I still think it is a DIY adaptation from a mix of parts-bin and shop-fab.

Mind - "factory" made goods can use that approach as well.

Scott(GA) · Jan 17, 2018

Monarchist said:
That MT-looking end unscrews, does it not?

Looks to me as if someone took partly stock arbor / parts and partly DIY to gin-up an arbour that could be used with either NMTB, chuck jaws on flange, or Morse driving-end.

It's the sort of kit some PO - probably an earlier owner than the most-recent seller - with a small mill might have adapted so his lathe - with longer on-axis to the arbour travel than the average mill - could also serve as a hor-bore imitation.

Guessing, of course. What else can we do?

But I'd bet YOU could use it that way, if need be.

Monarchist,

I do not believe the Morse Taper (or whatever it is) end is a separate piece.

However, there were some modifications and attachments to the lathe that were not original...

Is it possible that that Morse Taper looking end might go into the tailstock? I'll have to check!

Scott

Scott(GA) · Jan 17, 2018

Monarchist said:
As in "Bottom" when DIY sawdust making and the Top has been ID'ed as having a nicer grain, etc.

Besides the exposed plys (an invitation for damage or entry of moisture) - those red strips look suspiciously like Pirelli Belting - the sort one would salvage out from under the cushions of cheaply made furniture once it starts to sag into a different kind of "ass hole", two words, and literally.

Monarchist,

I saw the pencil marks on the top and couldn't make it into anything. I think "T" it is.

Your conclusion makes a lot of sense.

Scott

Monarchist · Jan 17, 2018

Scott(GA) said:
Is it possible that that Morse Taper looking end might go into the tailstock? I'll have to check!

It might fit, but that doesn't make a lot of sense, operationally.

More likely it fat (isn't that the past tense of "fit" as "shat" is to "shit"?) a small mill.

BeePee M head, a few other light-duty mills or add-on heads had MT spindles, even though it was already known in the gaslight era that MT wasn't good for the side-loads of milling, whilst B&S taper WAS (B&S taper in turn being far too likely to STICK to be much use for drilling..).

Scott(GA) · Jan 17, 2018

Monarchist said:
It might fit, but that doesn't make a lot of sense, operationally...

Monarchist,

Of course you are correct on that point... I did run out through the cold night to the shop and checked anyway. The taper on the arbor is too small for the Tailstock.

Scott

Monarchist · Jan 17, 2018

Scott(GA) said:
Monarchist,

Of course you are correct on that point... I did run out through the cold night to the shop and checked anyway. The taper on the arbor is too small for the Tailstock.

Scott

Not exactly BAD news. MT sleeves exist. Mine go to 5 MT, (one DP. one lathe) and in enough variants to not have to "stack".

Now.. typical live centre with replaceable "tips" doesn't often use full-length MT for its inserts. You could fit a bearing, as said.

Even so, doing hor-bore impressions on a lathe is not a common need. Reboring its own TS one of the few not easily done to the same 'natural' alignment any other way.

Unless you have plans to bore yer TS, ELSE a mill that can utilize this creature, I'd peddle it to someone who may have use for at least ONE end of it, "native".

I am not he (40-taper and 9 B&S here).

JST · Jan 17, 2018

Well, if the person in question had 2 mills, and the tapers fit each, it could make sense.

But it looks like the "drive collar" end has no place to fit even a "center" as the outside stabilizer for the arbor. I originally thought maybe it had an inside taper to fit a center, but closer look at the pic seems to show no such thing, So I have no particular idea how it would have been used if driven by the small taper, which also has no drawbar provision.

Maybe it was originally straight, and someone put the taper on it thinking to adapt it to a different machine. Then when they had done it, they decided it was not a good idea and quit, leaving it with just the small center hole.

The arbor is so short that I would suppose the other alternative of bearing collars would take up way too much arbor room. And you would want a drawbar hole for the small taper.

Monarchist · Jan 17, 2018

JST said:
Well, if the person in question had 2 mills, and the tapers fit each, it could make sense.

But it looks like the "drive collar" end has no place to fit even a "center" as the outside stabilizer for the arbor. I originally thought maybe it had an inside taper to fit a center, but closer look at the pic seems to show no such thing, So I have no particular idea how it would have been used if driven by the small taper, which also has no drawbar provision.

Maybe it was originally straight, and someone put the taper on it thinking to adapt it to a different machine. Then when they had done it, they decided it was not a good idea and quit, leaving it with just the small center hole.

The arbor is so short that I would suppose the other alternative of bearing collars would take up way too much arbor room. And you would want a drawbar hole for the small taper.

Might be a stretch too far, but...

My late 1950's, early 1960's Industrial Arts instructor might easily have granted an "A" for the calculations, precision, fit and finish workmanship, (presuming they are indeed "in there") whether the "project" gadget had ANY practical use at all.

He was teaching how-to, rather than what-for, after all.

L Vanice · Jan 17, 2018

Getting back to Hardinge TM and UM mill analogies, the newer pictures indicate the arbor and spacer have no keyway. Most saws and cutters with 1" bore have keyways, so it is common for 1" arbors and spacers to have keyways. (Classic chicken and egg situation, I guess, so I will not speculate which came first.) But Hardinge did not put keyways in their 1" and 7/8" arbors and spacers for the TM and UM mills. I have found it difficult to buy arbor spacers without keyways, so I have had to use a few generic used or new spacers with keyways on my Hardinge arbors. They work fine, but it is obvious that they are not OEM.

Bottom line is, an arbor that has a 30 taper or whatever is not made by Hardinge, but is odd and distinctive in not having a keyway.

Larry

Appears to be a Horizontal Mill Arbor... but for what machine?

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