B&S cone-drive horiz.- vert. attach. collets?

kd1yt · Aug 14, 2016

I have a cone-pulley driven Brown & Sharpe #2 horizontal milling machine that is fitted with an interesting vertical/angle milling head. Like the rest of the machine, this part is covered with historic crusty goo.

I can see that the bit that is mounted in this vertical/angle unit is mounted in a collet, and would like to see how that comes apart- I see an allen head bolt protruding through a flat-hex on the top of this vertical adapter. My hunch is that loosening the allen bolt will loosen a drawbar-like pull on the collet- and when I loosen the allen-head, it backs up and out of the surface that it threads through. Light tapping on the head of the allen-head does nothing so far, and I don't want to whack it more firmly until I can confirm (if someone please can?) that whacking it will loosen the collet and not damage other things.

Also, any sense of what collet this likely takes? There was a steel box with some grubby collets marked "Rivett 7" sitting on the side shelf of the machine when the machine was given to me. Any chance that these would fit the B&S (from google, it appears that Rivett 7 is also "4s")?

Is this vertical/angle-able unit on the B&S horizontal mill anything unusually uncommon or especially useful? (forgive the newb questions, I am learning all of this from a total beginner status as I rehab and learn how to use these machines that I was given)

Thanks in advance

johnoder · Aug 14, 2016

Maybe B&S 7 - I.E., .72" dia at big end of collet

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/redirect-to/?redirect=http://www.loganact.com/tips/tapers.htm

Oldwrench · Aug 14, 2016

B&S 7, 11, 13 etc. full-length taper (like a Morse drill shank) used in the spindles of old milling machines. Really, really sticks, as in HARD. It will take a pretty good hammer blow to break it loose. Caution: BACK THE SCREW OUT OF THE COLLET ABOUT 1/8 INCH AND NO MORE, so that you keep maximum thread engagement. Take only ONE shot then replace the screw, as you will probably mushroom it. The B&S taper was replaced, with the universal gratitude of machinists, by the NMTB taper (same as today's CAT40, 50 etc) which is a wider angle and self-releasing. Unless it's been in the spindle all weekend.

99Panhard · Aug 14, 2016

It looks like the Universal milling attachment in my 1913 catalog. If it's a #2 machine, it's a B&S 9 collet. There's nothing wrong with B&S collets except that almost everyone over tightens them. It is retained by a drawbar and you should be able to dislodge the collet by tapping on it. The attachment itself has plain bearings and I don't know what the dangers of hitting it too hard are, but it's never a good idea. The face of the attachment will come off if you remove the 4 nuts that allow you to set the angle. I'd just take it off and put it in a press of some sort so that only the collet and the face of the spindle are under tension when it's pressed out.

That attachment is much more uncommon than the mill and you are very lucky to have gotten it. If you set out to find one, it could take years.

jhruska · Aug 14, 2016

Same function ...but different.
The description seems to apply to yours.

John

Monarchist · Aug 14, 2016

kd1yt said:
I have a cone-pulley driven Brown & Sharpe #2 horizontal milling machine that is fitted with an interesting vertical/angle milling head. Like the rest of the machine, this part is covered with historic crusty goo.

I can see that the bit that is mounted in this vertical/angle unit is mounted in a collet, and would like to see how that comes apart- I see an allen head bolt protruding through a flat-hex on the top of this vertical adapter. My hunch is that loosening the allen bolt will loosen a drawbar-like pull on the collet- and when I loosen the allen-head, it backs up and out of the surface that it threads through. Light tapping on the head of the allen-head does nothing so far, and I don't want to whack it more firmly until I can confirm (if someone please can?) that whacking it will loosen the collet and not damage other things.

Also, any sense of what collet this likely takes? There was a steel box with some grubby collets marked "Rivett 7" sitting on the side shelf of the machine when the machine was given to me. Any chance that these would fit the B&S (from google, it appears that Rivett 7 is also "4s")?

Is this vertical/angle-able unit on the B&S horizontal mill anything unusually uncommon or especially useful? (forgive the newb questions, I am learning all of this from a total beginner status as I rehab and learn how to use these machines that I was given)

Thanks in advance

View attachment 178052 View attachment 178053 View attachment 178054

Stuck B&S taper goods generally benefit, a LOT, from the spindle clung to being warmed-up.

Running it for a while a practical minimum. External heat, and I do not mean torch, if it cannot readily be run just yet.

They probably hold no patent on that, so no harm simmering it a tad even if it is NOT a B&S.

Bill

99Panhard · Aug 14, 2016

I think this is what you may have — or a slightly later or earlier version of this. This is from 1913. In reading it more carefully, I see that you may have either #7 or #9 collets depending on which #2 mill you have.

esbutler · Aug 15, 2016

I believe that with a universal head like this and a gear-driven dividing head installed on a plain mill, one can do essentially everything that would otherwise be done on a universal horizontal without this head - ie one can cut a spiral flute without a universal milling machine. Can you guys confirm (or set me straight)?

Joe in NH · Aug 15, 2016

esbutler said:
I believe that with a universal head like this and a gear-driven dividing head installed on a plain mill, one can do essentially everything that would otherwise be done on a universal horizontal without this head - ie one can cut a spiral flute without a universal milling machine. Can you guys confirm (or set me straight)?

I believe you correct. A plain mill has no angular capability in the table. If you feed the table straight across and set the mill head vertical AND your end mill cutter has the cross section profile you wish in your groove, then you're good to go.

You may need to compensate for tangent angularity between the cutter and the desired path (the "start" point) - but you have this same issue with a axial milling cutter and the angled table (pictured in Rose's Modern Machine Shop Practice IIRC.)

Joe in NH

Monarchist · Aug 15, 2016

esbutler said:
I believe that with a universal head like this and a gear-driven dividing head installed on a plain mill, one can do essentially everything that would otherwise be done on a universal horizontal without this head - ie one can cut a spiral flute without a universal milling machine. Can you guys confirm (or set me straight)?

A 'Universal' table on a Horizontal is more useful for NARROW face-width helical gear cutting. Within limits, no synchronized geared-drive of a DH required.

Wider ones pose the same sort of challenge as spirals do. The synchronized DH becomes a primary player, a vertical head approaches 'essential' as well.

Nice to have 'all of the above', of course.

Bill

johnoder · Aug 15, 2016

To be technically precise, there is no helix unless an appropriately geared-to-table-screw DH is involved - milling some geared for lead

Sure, you can do angular teeth - which of course are not helical

Monarchist · Aug 15, 2016

johnoder said:
To be technically precise, there is no helix unless an appropriately geared-to-table-screw DH is involved - milling some geared for lead

Sure, you can do angular teeth - which of course are not helical

True. But narrow enough - and the world has plenty of those - they fit and work well-enough against mates that ARE 'proper' ones.

Clockwork mechanism and office machine sizes, experimental robotics, often brass or plastics, not steel, and nothing like automotive gearboxes, lathe headstocks or larger.

Bill

CountryBoy19 · Aug 16, 2016

99Panhard said:
There's nothing wrong with B&S collets except that almost everyone over tightens them. QUOTE]
This ^^^

Nothing at all wrong with the B&S taper; EXCELLENT holding power with very little torque necessary on the draw-bolt. The problem is that most folks over-tighten them and then complain that they are hard to get out...

ramsay1 · Aug 16, 2016

Use Of Vertical Head In Spiral Cutting

Cutting Teeth In Spiral Gear Using Compound Vertical Milling Attachment table set at zero..(Brown & Sharpe)

Ramsay 1

Sunset Machine · Aug 16, 2016

The advantage being you don't have to crank the knee up/down to clear the cutter on every pass, using the cross feed instead. Strikes me as a trifle more difficult to set up that way and far less rigid though.

kd1yt · Aug 16, 2016

Thank you everyone for the insights into removing my stuck collet and the usefulness of this feature on this machine. I learned a lot from this thread!

Search

Largest Manufacturing Technology Community on the Web

Search

B&S cone-drive horiz.- vert. attach. collets?

kd1yt

Cast Iron

johnoder

Diamond

Oldwrench

Titanium

99Panhard

Stainless

jhruska

Titanium

Monarchist

Diamond

99Panhard

Stainless

esbutler

Aluminum

Joe in NH

Diamond

Monarchist

Diamond

johnoder

Diamond

Monarchist

Diamond

CountryBoy19

Stainless

ramsay1

Titanium

Attachments

Sunset Machine

Aluminum

kd1yt

Cast Iron

Similar threads