Bad spindle bearings on the lathe, Need help Please

Hi guys new to this place and also new to the machining world, I have a 16x30 Hendey that I bought fairly cheap "little more than scrap price"
that has bad spindle bearings, I know the super precision bearings are WAY to high and worth 4 times what I paid for the lathe, I am looking for
a replacement that will make due and not be so expensive.
The lathe is 60+ years old and shows some light/mod wear and would never hold tight enough to make the high class bearings worth the price.
I know hendey is not a main stream lathe and most people won't know the answer to this question, but you never know so hear go's
What are the sizes of the main spindle bearings? I think that they are 4 of them.
The gear head is stamped T.R.B which stands for timken roller bearing.

Thanks guys for any help.
Steve.

being "new "to the machining world,how did you verify the bearings are bad.That 60 year old lathe
looks pretty good in the picture.Did you pull off the headstock cover and have a look?I bet it will be fun
removing that spindle .To find replacement bearings measure the original od/id/length and start looking or contact a bearing supplier with those sizes.Personally I would buy the real bearings IF the originals are bad as your next post will be "how come nothing turns round on my lathe?"

To answer your question, yes, you can use cheaper bearings than the high precision ones. There are members here, real deal machinists, who have done it and stand by the practice (on the right machine in the right circumstances).

But read this post several times:

keithmech said:

being "new "to the machining world,how did you verify the bearings are bad.That 60 year old lathe
looks pretty good in the picture.Did you pull off the headstock cover and have a look?I bet it will be fun
removing that spindle .To find replacement bearings measure the original od/id/length and start looking or contact a bearing supplier with those sizes.Personally I would buy the real bearings IF the originals are bad as your next post will be "how come nothing turns round on my lathe?"

Click to expand...

It's not necessarily easy, even for a seasoned machinist, to determine that spindle bearings are shot. If you do determine it definitively, then for all the work you will have getting the old ones out and the new ones in, it really would be a pity to put cheaper lower precision bearings in there. Hendy made some really nice stuff, give it the bearings it deserves.

Provide something useful such as serial number (stamped into machined cast iron between two front ways right end near the pair of screws holding up the right hand leadscrew bearing) and possibly Hendeyman will come up with the Timken numbers for you. Naturally they should be ordered as Class 0. First I would know for absolute certain that the ones in there were actually "bad".

You will probably have to get the bearings out and measure them and make sure you replace them with the correct imperial sizes. Often they are standard sizes and the super precision are selected. There are various bearing arrangements used in lathes and you may find taper rollers which can be adjusted. Not the same lathe but you could have the same sort of layout as this one, their precision lathe

Page Title

It mentions the dreaded word preload. Best answer to that is to find a manual / parts list that gives information on setting it. Your lathe looks like it may run with oiled bearings rather than grease which does make that aspect a bit easier if you need to guess. Also looks like the top may come of the head for access so that you can see the adjustment mechanism. Might be lock nuts or even shims. There are several approaches to guessing. The 1st stage is a sensitive dti on the spindle and no movement. The 2nd stage involves running the machine for some time at it's medium speed and checking for bearing heat. A lathe may take 20mins or more for the heat to stabilise. They should at least run warm so increase the preload until they do. Then run at max speed and check that they don't get too hot. Some might run with the actual bearing temperature as high as 100C then. No hard and fast rules here. It's often possible to feel inside the spindle with the lathe stopped and detect heat locally where the bearings are. Chances are that if this area feels rather warm all is ok. Eventually the front of the headstock will feel warm on many lathes. While doing all of this do make sure that there aren't any really tight spots as the spindle is rotated by hand. As the lathe has been used without adjusting the bearings a bit of this sort of thing is to be expected. Last test involves turning. You might find that rings appear along the work and/or the same cut removes more and more metal away from the chuck each time it is taken. Typical signs of worn / loose bearings but don't forget that the bar may bend due to cutting pressure and if the cut is too light the weight of the chuck may be holding things in place. Tighten until the effect goes away or gets as good as it can be if the bearings start to show signs of overheating.

Chances are if you go through this before even considering new bearing things may not be as bad as you think. If it is oil lubricated I would also give the head stock a thorough clean out first. Same sort of idea can be used to adjust greased bearings but far more adjustments at the turning stage are likely to be needed. Too much grease also make them run a lot hotter. It's even worth over adjusting slightly as this will encourage the bearings to re wear in. Sometimes if the bearings on a lathe are well adjusted apart from wear a very light final cut is all that is needed for a decent finish.

If you do have to replace any or all of the bearings and don't have access to a bearing press and it's bits and pieces you are likely to need to make some bits to help with that what ever state the lathe is in now. Tubes with end caps to drive the inners off and also new ones on with all thread. Discs to drive the new outers in with all thread and it will probably pay to add a couple of ball races or taper rollers to put under the nuts on the all thread. There is a need to think of ways to keep things square as old ones come off and when new one go in. There are usual access points for extracting old outers, threaded holes or plain holes to take a drift. Domestic oven can be used as a makeshift bearing heater. Up to 150C should be safe.

People can be paid to lightly regrind bearings if needed because they are specials. They grind a spigot to take the inner and regrind that and then a pocket to regrind the outer. This isn't an option if the front bearings are plain roller and the rear takes the thrust. The precision lathe sounds to be the other way round.

Hope this all helps. That looks to be a rather nice lathe. That web site I linked to might like some photo's and model info as they don't seem to have much on that particular make.

John

I should have added a bit about inspecting the bearing surfaces. They are highly unlikely to look like brand new bearings. Bits missing from the surface is bad news. One patch may not be too bad. These are usually caused by junk getting in the bearing. A slight ripple like finish that you can't detect with a finger is likely to be sub um and not of much consequence. You are likely to have problems if you can really feel it rather than just detect it..

Also general check of the lathe. Chuck some 2 ins dia free cutting mild steel. Turn it true and take about a 0.060 cut with a good tool. That should take up any bearing etc play and give a decent finish even if really clapped out / badly adjusted. 0.030 or there about isn't at all unusual on relatively decent machines.

John

What tests have you run which prove the bearings are bad?

I've usually found that play in the bearings, like if there isn't enough preload will easily show up as excessive chatter when taking a facing cut. Mind you I only had 1 crappy lathe with the issue and I just tightened up the lock nut on the rear taper roller bearing and it was much better then.
So, before changing anything I'd definitely check preload if they've got some adjustment.

keithmech said:

being "new "to the machining world,how did you verify the bearings are bad.That 60 year old lathe
looks pretty good in the picture.Did you pull off the headstock cover and have a look?I bet it will be fun
removing that spindle .To find replacement bearings measure the original od/id/length and start looking or contact a bearing supplier with those sizes.Personally I would buy the real bearings IF the originals are bad as your next post will be "how come nothing turns round on my lathe?"

Click to expand...

Yes I did remove the cover and "have a look" I am new to the machining world but not new to the way a bad bearing feels.
The bearing is noticeably loud and gritty feeling, everything is still tight but I want to get to it b4 if causes any other damage.
I am not making money with my machines just a hobby of mine for the last 2 years so I don't need the newest and best bearings
on the market, I just want bearings that will give as good numbers as the used machine capable of given it's age and wear.
Thanks;
Steve

johnoder said:

Provide something useful such as serial number (stamped into machined cast iron between two front ways right end near the pair of screws holding up the right hand leadscrew bearing) and possibly Hendeyman will come up with the Timken numbers for you. Naturally they should be ordered as Class 0. First I would know for absolute certain that the ones in there were actually "bad".

Click to expand...

Hendey 16x30
31623
Dpc no 3-A-1120

SND said:

I've usually found that play in the bearings, like if there isn't enough preload will easily show up as excessive chatter when taking a facing cut. Mind you I only had 1 crappy lathe with the issue and I just tightened up the lock nut on the rear taper roller bearing and it was much better then.
So, before changing anything I'd definitely check preload if they've got some adjustment.

Click to expand...

I am not getting a poor finish and the spindle is tight, I used a 3' bar chucked with a mag base and dial ind on the outside of the chuck to check for play and there is 1tho to none.

Screwmachine said:

To answer your question, yes, you can use cheaper bearings than the high precision ones. There are members here, real deal machinists, who have done it and stand by the practice (on the right machine in the right circumstances).

But read this post several times:


It's not necessarily easy, even for a seasoned machinist, to determine that spindle bearings are shot. If you do determine it definitively, then for all the work you will have getting the old ones out and the new ones in, it really would be a pity to put cheaper lower precision bearings in there. Hendy made some really nice stuff, give it the bearings it deserves.

Click to expand...

In my mind putting $2000 O class bearings in a $500 machine that will make me a total of $0 is almost crazy, I agree that the hendey "looks good in the picture"
but it is far from a new machine and will never be new again, I want bearings that will hold up to the use I will give and hold the tolerances I am capable of.
This machine will never run 3 shifts again, the most use it will get will be less than 3 hours a week probably.
I do love the machine and wish that I had the cash to throw some O class bearings in it, but in my world that is not likely to be the case.
I have read about hendeyman and hope he chimes in, he seems to be the one to talk to about anything Hendey.

Thank everyone for there input I am grateful.

Yes it is an old machine but hardly an antique and as lathe bearing problems are common and general it's odd the posts have finished up here.

No check running and bearing heat. Oh well

John

"I used a 3' bar chucked with a mag base and dial ind on the outside of the chuck to check for play and there is 1tho to none."

Hmm. In my book the bearings are "good."

There's a lot of reasons why they might feel peculiar but until the spindle is opened for inspection it's tough
to say what's up.

The amount of time between bearings losing lube and being contaminated and when wear becomes very appreciable is
short. If there's still preload, they may be salvageable for your use.

jim rozen said:

"I used a 3' bar chucked with a mag base and dial ind on the outside of the chuck to check for play and there is 1tho to none."

Hmm. In my book the bearings are "good."

There's a lot of reasons why they might feel peculiar but until the spindle is opened for inspection it's tough
to say what's up.

The amount of time between bearings losing lube and being contaminated and when wear becomes very appreciable is
short. If there's still preload, they may be salvageable for your use.

Click to expand...

Yeh but sometimes it doesn't seem possible to give people good advice - no seriously it just annoys me sometimes. People also seem to think bearings are quiet. Forget to clean out old oil and debris and plough on in maybe not realising the preload means no play but even when there doesn't seem to be any there still may be when a cut is taken.

One truly bad point is some lathes aren't even adjustable but given the age of this one that's unlikely

John

"There's a lot of reasons why they might feel peculiar but until the spindle is opened for inspection it's tough
to say what's up"

Yes you are rite, its hard to say without looking at the races, when I got the lathe the oil level on the rear bearing sight glass was O, no oil at all.
I started this post asking for help locating bearings that others use in place of the super bearings, But it is hard to get info on bearings that even I don't
yet know the size of...


Hope hendeyman can help

"Yeh but sometimes it doesn't seem possible to give people good advice - no seriously it just annoys me sometimes"

Is this pointed at me??
I am new to the forum and am not trying to ruffle any feathers, Trust me I know that there is a bearing issue due to the ear numbing roar
and extremely rough feel when rotating the chuck.
I did not ask for advice on checking bearing although I am thankful for the concern and advice, I ask for a bearing source and a class other than
the super bearings.
Thanks everyone and please keep it nice, It is easy to say "Just put the Best in" when the money is not coming out of your account .

good bearings ,like good steak, cost money.No oil may not be a bad thing.
Take off the head stock cover and post a clear picture of the front bearing area.
This might be a dumb question but did you add oil before running?A dry bearing is
or can be quite noisy.Another thought.Run the machine with the headstock cover off,
use a low rpm so oil doesn't fly everywhere.See if oil is getting to the bearings.There might be a clogged oil line.

"No oil may not be a bad thing." If the time frame that they were ran with no oil was short yes you are rite.

"Take off the head stock cover and post a clear picture of the front bearing area" OK, will do

"This might be a dumb question but did you add oil before running?" Yes I did

"Run the machine with the headstock cover off,
use a low rpm so oil doesn't fly everywhere.See if oil is getting to the bearings.There might be a clogged oil line."

I did not think of this and will give it a try, thanks for the advice

Autumnsummers2 said:

"Yeh but sometimes it doesn't seem possible to give people good advice - no seriously it just annoys me sometimes"

Is this pointed at me??
I am new to the forum and am not trying to ruffle any feathers, Trust me I know that there is a bearing issue due to the ear numbing roar
and extremely rough feel when rotating the chuck.
I did not ask for advice on checking bearing although I am thankful for the concern and advice, I ask for a bearing source and a class other than
the super bearings.
Thanks everyone and please keep it nice, It is easy to say "Just put the Best in" when the money is not coming out of your account .

Click to expand...

Yes sorry it was aimed at you. Just my way as I know that preloaded bearings should show no play the way you tested them and that they even behave in a different manner when running dynamically with lubrication and may then still show play under cutter loads. I even explained how to check and adjust pre load without any info to guide you. How do I know this - training and experience.

Fact these types of bearings make more noise if loose and even the type of lubrication can make a difference in that area. It can be really important to use the correct grade. Also not mentioned but the lathe looks to use a geared head and that may be why the spindle feels odd.

You will also probably find it very difficult to get the spindle out and replace the bearings as well. I just did that on a much simpler head and not to change the bearings either. Due to the bearing fit I could scarcely get it to move with M10 all thread. Oh how I wish I had purchased some bearings to put under the nuts. It would have made the job easier and might even have stopped the all thread twisting under load. I have changed bearings in the past so also warned you about the bits and pieces you are likely to need. There may also be a problem just buying any old equivalent bearing due to changes in the tolerancing since your lathe was made.

You see what I was trying to point out is that there is a fair chance that you don't actually need new bearings but by all means when you find out what they are fit them. I also pointed you in the right direction for getting bearing reground if it happens to be a special. Some are. But I must add that your likely to find it more difficult than you expect to fit a new bearing or bearings and there is even a chance of messing them up. It really pays to rule out other possibilities before going down that route.

On using none precision bearings basically changing just one bearing will upset the running of the spindle precision or not. What's there will have worn in. Using none precision bearings will interfere with obtaining an even preload through an entire revolution of the spindle more so than precision bearings would. The 2ndry effect is spindle alignment - that will also have an effect on any bearings on the spindle. Hopefully even std bearings will wear in over time and be ok eventually following several pre load adjustments. I know of some one who bought new bearings fitted them and then quickly put the old ones back in. Also some one else that changed the bearings because the surfaces were slightly worn. He expected them to look like new bearings.

John