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Barnes Number 5 Treadle Lathe

mywheels

Plastic
Joined
Jan 9, 2021
Hello all! I purchased a Barnes Number 5 treadle lathe a couple of weeks ago and have slowly been cleaning things and putting them back together. The lathe was truly a basket case. Everything had been disassembled for storage. At some point, I need to find a used flywheel, or someone willing to cast one, and the rod/straps running from the cross shaft to the treadle. I also need to replace or repair the banjo. As far as the gears go, I have a full set, but am not sure yet how everything is assembled. All the parts you see in the photos is all I have, except for one box of tooling. I have access to other lathes, so this one is more of a hobby project. I love old iron, whether it be vehicles, tractors, or machines.

After a couple days of cleaning, assembly begins.
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The rest of the parts. Yes, the pulleys are not original equipment. I would like to take the lathe back to original. Does anyone know where to get the treadle parts I need?
 
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The rest of the parts. Yes, the pulleys are not original equipment. I would like to take the lathe back to original. Does anyone know where to get the treadle parts I need?

Parts have been reproduced in the past. Flywheels were done by Cat-Tail as I understand it, and an earlier reproducer did several - which were quickly snapped up. One reproducer was in the market for a VBM to turn the flywheel exteriors and we talked on that too.

As I understand it the prices for the flywheel were in the $350 range each.

I myself bought a reproduced pedal assembly (including the triangle shaped foot-pads) for (IIRC) about $180 - plus shipping which was an additional $40.

The problem with "bringing them back" is that once you buy the lathe, and all the reproduced parts, you're probably going to spend more than the lathe will ever achieve in a resale. If you want a complete lathe, you're almost better off to buy a complete lathe - and keep the other as "parts" to resell to those who need them.

I have been "given" parts by those who are simply looking to clean out. And I have given parts similarly.

I myself have a 4-1/2 upstairs only a little less than what you show for this 5 - and its probably worth what I paid for it - about $350. Legs figure $200 a pair. Lathe bed usable as a bench model, about $150.

But you do as it pleases you. It's not just about the money sometimes. The satisfaction level one gets sometimes can't be bought for money - or love.

Another respondent MAY get in touch with you regarding parts. I'll let him come forth at his leisure as he recently expressed an interest to me to get back into it.

Good luck,
Joe in NH
Barnes 4-1/2 complete velocipede
Barnes 5 complete velocipede
 
Joe, thank you for the advice. None of the projects I take on are ever about the money. I'm not into this one for very much, and there's a lot of joy for me in bringing something back to life. The beauty of this being the true treadle lathe is that I have all of the treadle parts except the flywheel and what I call the down straps off of the crankshaft. I have access to lathes, mills, and a couple gear hobs, so any fiddly bits I can make. I'm also debating on whether or not I should make sets of change gears for these as I see they're hard to come by for the #5. As for the fiddly bits, I need help understanding how the gears mount to the lathe, and what hardware I may be missing for mounting the flywheel to the crankshaft. I see the treadle lathe crankshaft and flywheel setup looks slightly different than the velocipede. If someone decides to make flywheels again, I would definitely be interested!
 
I'm also debating on whether or not I should make sets of change gears for these as I see they're hard to come by for the #5.

The problem with No. 5 change gears is that they're diametral pitch 14 - which is a size which was not that common back then - and possibly never produced by Boston Gear (who kind of set the market direction in these sort of thing.)

However, it is possible to use a complete set of something else. The Barnes 4-1/2 is DP16 and these are quite common from various sources including Boston Gear - although that latter is not necessarily recommended as you can buy three DP16 gears on ebay for the price of one from Boston Gear.

That is if you have NO gears.

Also, and this is relatively new, there are advertisers on Ebay who are marketing plastic jet "printed" change gears, and doubtless they could produce anything you might need.

Speaking of gears, do you have the large "104" gear? I haven't examined your pictures closely. (Edit:I see now you have the 104!) If you have this it might lead you more certainly at keeping it DP14. This large gear is used for most "normal" turning on the Barnes 5 as it yields a much finer feed than the other TPI aimed gear.

Be careful moving that lathe when standing on a concrete floor by "pushing" it while standing on the legs. Two bolts hold the legs, and the bolts are not necessarily made to current standards of strength. A leg bolt that breaks causes the end of the lathe to drop, hit the floor, and the 104 gear invariably gets trashed in the impact - so be careful out there. Resist a natural tendency to slide the lathe: rather lift or pull gently.

Yours is a true treadle lathe. The treadle version was available for a large part of the production years for Barnes Lathes, but the velocipede was MUCH more popular and more widely sold. This one might be worth keeping treadle simply because it is treadle. As such it transitions into the "rare of the rare."

The details of the treadle parts I can't really help you with, (velocipede on both of mine) but someone here doubtless has the treadle version and will be able to help.

Good luck!

Joe in NH
 
Yes, I have a complete set of change gears. I'm considering making more for those who need them. Thankfully, I used my common sense in moving the lathe once I put it back together.

I like keeping things original, so yes I'm planning on keeping this one a treadle. I find it interesting/efficient that Barnes used wood for the treadle.

Thanks for the info.
 
On the barnes lathe (and many others of this ilk) the spindle position is at the top, the "stud" position is midway/height and is mounted on the banjo on a sliding/moveable mount, and the lead screw position is fixed in place at the lead screw.

The spindle position offers TWO lateral positions to place the spindle gear.

The stud position offers TWO lateral positions to place the stud gear(s).

The lead screw position offers only ONE position to place the lead screw gear.

As normally set up with non-compound gears, the "rightmost" position of the two upper gears is selected. The "left" positions are filled by a "spacer" which fills the space and with the retaining bolt retains the gears.

At the spindle position, a key causes the gear and the associated spacer to turn with the spindle

On the stud position, a bush and key will turn free on the stud, but the bush and key is designed to keep TWO gears at this position together and synchronized, a spacer placed in the left position (similar to the spindle) being used to replace ONE gear for non-compound trains. The non-compound stud gear is placed to the "right" position on the bush/stud and the banjo/stud position adjusted to bring the gears together. The 104 gear is well used as the stud gear if non-compounded TPI threading is being done, although technically for non-compounded gearing ANY gear that will fit the space can be used as the stud gear.

There is always ONE gear using a key at the lead screw position, be it the 104 gear (ordinary turning) or something else (either non-compound or compound gearing)

Compound gearing is made similarly to non-compound, but on the spindle position the gear is placed to the left and the spacer to the right position. At the stud position two gears together right/left, and keyed together using the keyed bush. At the lead screw position a gear is placed identical to non-compound. (Right gear positioning)

The TPI chart shows you what gears should be where. For compound gears, the stud position on the chart shows the gear pair separated by a slash "/" with right and left positions. These correspond to the positions in the compound geartrain as you place the gears on the stud.

So besides the set of gears, you need two keyed collars, three keys, and one keyed bush. And the three bolts or thumbscrews to retain the gears. (some use two)

Some Barnes have thumbscrews, some have hex heads on the retaining bolt, but never mixed together - they're either one or the other. Recently another thread showed the knurled thumbscrew version. Mine are a simple large headed hex bolt.

Hope this helps. I can provide pix of the parts - but not right away.

Joe in NH
 
You have a rare treadle version.

I have one and was working to restore 3 to 4 years ago. However life changes. I have all the parts except the crank shaft. Designed and built the tooling to bend the treadle crankshafts, however learned later these are manufactured from 1” diameter material. Velocipede Barnes crankshafts are 7/8” diameter. So have to rebuild tooling.

I purchased the yokes and the brackets to attach treadle frame to the pivot rod, (I recall a right and left) from a fellow Barnes restorer. He had the parts cast however located a complete lathe, selling me the lathe and reproduction parts. May have a couple extra reproductions of the rods/straps. Will need to refresh my memory, as over the years the memory has faded.

Challenge is I’m not in my shop much, but hoping to be there more in summer.

The treadle version is the only Barnes #5 model I don’t have a working model.

Ray :D
 
Joe, if and when you get time, would you please take a picture of your setup and the parts and positions you mention? If it's a bother, no worries but, having a visual reference would help immensely. I'm new to machining and have a lot to learn. I'm pretty sure I have all three thumb screws for attaching the gears. I'll take some more close-up photos of what I have tomorrow.

Ray, your shop sounds like it would be fun to visit! These old machines are fascinating. If and when you find the rods/straps please post a photo and send me a pm. I'm definitely interested in finding the correct parts for my lathe. Hopefully it's not your health keeping you from working in your shop. My shop is my favorite place to be. There's so much to learn and create there! I'll have to measure my crankshaft. If I remember correctly, it seemed to be 1" in diameter. On a positive note, people looking for velocipede crankshafts will be thankful you took the time to build tooling for parts to restore their lathes. Hopefully you'll make the crankshaft for your treadle lathe. You're so close to being done. It would be fun to have a full set of complete and working Barnes lathes.

When I first brought the lathe home, I thought of fully restoring it. It was completely disassembled, so it wouldn't take much to strip the paint and completely redo it. I changed my mind. Now, my purpose is to clean and remove all rust. I don't like perfect things. This lathe has had a long life before it found me. Each owner left their mark. I like to think that I'm honoring the history of the lathe by preserving it in working condition. If I made everything perfect (paint and replate), then the lathe would loose a lot of what appeals to me. I love old vehicles and tractors. None of the ones I own are perfectly restored. I hesitate to perfectly restore any of them as I thoroughly enjoy them the way they are. Plus, I would be afraid to scratch the shiny new paint! I reserve the right to change my mind but, for now this is my perspective.
 
Not my health....

started a long distant courtship, in 2018, 75 miles between her place and mine, and we married back in June. However we’re in the increased risk group of covid so limiting our activities.

Here is a YouTube video https://youtu.be/l8EwIjHSt6E of my old exhibit trailer from 2014. In late 2015, acquired my own semi tractor (RV), and late 2016 upgraded to a 53ft trailer. I carry the exhibit to tractor and engine shows, and an occasionally make a special showing for educational groups. In 2017 made a video of new exhibit trailer but couldn’t get it to upload and likely lost or misplaced on a hard drive somewhere.

I put Barnes treadle on my list of activities next trip to my place. Now don’t lose list. :willy_nilly:

Ray :D
 
Treadle Details

Here are a couple of pictures of the treadle parts on my 4 1/2 Barnes true treadle lathe. The hooking pitman arms are fairly simple and a blacksmith can make them for you. The two connectors to the wood treadle are fairly straight forward as well.

If the shaft looks chromed, it is. Got this from the estate of a person who had it in his office in an industrial company of some type and they had several parts chromed including the headstock and tailstock. (If anyone has a good idea on how to get the chrome off, please let me know)

Made a couple of drawings of the wood and metal parts of the lathe. Keep in mind these are for a 4 1/2 so size will need to be adjusted. Thought I had the linkage to the wood treadle drawn but evidentially did not.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions! Thanks and stay safe to all. Ed

PS.. Ray, you all take care and thanks for sharing that latest video!! Treadle detail 2.jpgTreadle detail 1.jpgTreadle diagram for true machine.jpgTreadle lathe metal linkages.jpgTreadle shaft 1 LD.jpg
 
If the shaft looks chromed, it is. Got this from the estate of a person who had it in his office in an industrial company of some type and they had several parts chromed including the headstock and tailstock. (If anyone has a good idea on how to get the chrome off, please let me know)

Meh. Paint the portion between journals "black" (maybe scuff up the chrome with 150 sandpaper) and call it done.

The chrome in the journal parts actually serves as "wear coating" - may flake off in time as it wears through but won't do any particular harm given these journals are most commonly lubricated with a spot of grease. The chrome is actually harder than the original surface so periodic cleaning of the grease will let you know if any damage/lifting is occurring. Cleaning which should be done anyway for a "user."

Joe in NH
 
Congratulations Ray! Glad you found a sidekick. I enjoyed your video! That's a wonderful display. I'm glad to see someone is willing to show historical machines to future generations. Good luck with your list. I never seem to remember mine either.

Ed, the dimensions you posted will be extremely helpful once I get to make my missing parts! I'll adjust the dimensions as necessary. Thank you for posting. Looks like you have a nice lathe.

Here's a few pictures of where I'm at in my cleaning process. I love this thing and look forward to making chips with it.
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What's left on the table to clean.
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ID Parts

I'm sure some of the parts that came with this lathe don't belong to it. Does anyone recognize any of the parts as belonging to another identifiable machine?

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That's all for now. I'll check back in as time allows. Have a great week and thanks for all of your help and information.
 








 
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