rivett608
Diamond
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2002
- Location
- Kansas City, Mo.
The "2nd micrometer" thread strayed a little off topic partially due to me so I have reposted these parts in this new thread. I hope none of the posters mind I did this so we can keep the other thread timeless and on target.
Davycroket in the UK had posted photos of some un-identified mics in his collection... I hope he re posts the photos here in this thread. Here is what was said about them....
Seeing your thread about early micrometers prompted me to dig out my strange micrometer.
It was made in UK by W Fox and Sons of Smethwick. It says REG DESGN No 839947.
It's range is 0 -0.5" with quite big graduations of 0.001"
The wheel in the end view picture is 1.5" in Diam, making the graduations nearly 1/10th" apart .
I can find no information about it , so I have no idea of its age.
Google provided one hit.
Back in 2003 in a Home Engineering Forum a guy said he had one but also said he could find no information. Even the Reg Desgn No was not to be found.
Perhaps Mr Fox only made 2 !!!
Davycrocket
Attached Thumbnails
Asquith
Titanium
Well, that's an odd one for sure. Looks like it's designed to stand up to rough usage rather than being for precise measurements. Plate or sheet rolling mill?
Looking at the numbers on the dial, it seems to be relatively modern. The only other Fox micrometer I've seen is a fairly modern tube mic that I have:-
Small tube micrometer
davycrocket
Yet another measuring instrument.
Hi Asquith
I was reading your post in the earlier thread by Rivett, and when I started to read the sentence:-
Quote
"Imagine a protractor, with a pin going through the centre. Attached to the pin on the front is a finger pointing to graduations on the ‘protractor’. Also attached to the pin, but on the other side.........."
I thought " Wow here comes my strange measuring device"
But no, you then went on to describe something different.
So here is my device that starts :-
" Imagine a protractor, with a pin going through the centre. Attached to the pin on the front is a finger pointing to graduations on the ‘protractor’. Also attached to the pin, but on the other side" , (and now mine continues) :-
"Is a lever with a tiny fusee-like chain attached like in an aneroid barometer.
The lever, which has a fulcrum pivot near the top, and then a tiny closed knife edged pincer, has a pin at it's lower end which protrudes though a curved slot the front plate.
The pointer normally points to 0 on the 0-360 rotary scale, and when the pin is moved in the slot, the lever following it pulls the chain causing the pointer to rotate and the knife edged pincer opens though a small arc. The lever returns to it's normal position via a light spring action." The spring is not visible so I assume it must be inside the small drum on the centre spindle round which the several turns of chain are wound. It stands flat on its three legs in a nice blue lined original box. The dial and pointer are protected by a domed glass. I got it from an elderly watchmaker so perhaps it's use was horological measurement . Maybe it's a comparator rather than a measuring device like the Douzieme gage.
There is no name or any other marking. Do you have any Idea what might have been its purpose.? I supose I should put a known guage in the gap to see what graduation it translates to.
Davycrocket
JST
Possibly a "Grossman Gauge"?
I hve been trying to track down a picture of one since seeing it mentioned in Goodrich some time ago,
While there are some lever-type dental gauges of that name, the horological folks say it was a 3" or so dial gauge with the measuring place at one side. They even produced a reference to an illustration, of course in a book I do not have.
Like
rivett608
Davy Your first micrometer is a English design bench mic I think from the 1st half of the 20th century.... I have one just like it by Moore & Wright.
Your other gauge is used by watch and clock makers....... I think the are Continental, made somewhere around the French Swiss border in the late 19th century..... I'll try to look through some catalogs tomorrow to find it.....
Asquith
Davy,
Your instrument with the dial is certainly intriguing. Judging by the lettering on the dial, I too would say French or Swiss.
Regarding your mic in post #12, which Rivett says he has a Moore & Wright equivalent, I found something similar in the 1923 Buck & Hickman catalogue. It’s a Brown & Sharp ‘Sheet Metal Gauge’ No. 222. Same principle, but hand held, for single hand operation, ‘especially convenient for sheet metal workers and handlers’.
The rolling mill mics were different, having a very deep frame.
As an aside, a curiosity in the 1923 catalogue is a sheet metal micrometer, B&S No. 220, described as one of the earliest forms of micrometer put on to the market. It stands on three legs, but otherwise the picture is too small to figure out what’s going on.
Like
L Vanice
Quote:
Originally Posted by rivett608
Davy Your first micrometer is a English design bench mic I think from the 1st half of the 20th century.... I have one just like it by Moore & Wright.
Your other gauge is used by watch and clock makers....... I think the are Continental, made somewhere around the French Swiss border in the late 19th century..... I'll try to look through some catalogs tomorrow to find it.....
I had an identical dial caliper with fusee chain, still in a leather-covered storage case. I thought it 19th century, not 20th. I bought it from a local jeweler and sold it long ago. But I am sure it was absolutely identical.
I still have three of the second type caliper. I think the subject came up in another thread here a while back, and I posted pictures then. They were certainly used by watch and jewelry workers into the 20th century. One of mine is American, a circa 1946 Charles Moe diamond weight gauge. It came with a set of tables for calculating the weight of a diamond without removing it from its setting, just from measurements.
Moe gauge picture: Hammel, Riglander & Co./N.Y. : Moe's Patent Diamond Gauge
Larry
davycrocket
As It had been suggested that my dial type Gauge might be Horological , I turned the pages one at a time in a Large book I have, written by an American gentleman called Theodore Crom. It has the title 'Horological Shop Tools 1700-1900' and sure enough I found my item listed in an 1886 Tool Catalogue produced by LEVY, DRUFUS & Co of 11 MAIDEN LANE NEW YORK. It was right next to a picture of a Douzieme Gauge that I mentioned .
So I think both are really comparator type, and not measuring tools The company was described as a 'Watchmakers and Jewelers supplier' It was available with 100 divisions or 360 divisions like mine . But does not suggest a Maker. A further picture later in the book suggests that the Gauge is Swiss dating from 1860 or earlier.
Interestingly, earlier in my book is a picture of a Similar but simpler version of my Dial type Gauge. It just has a graduated quadrant rather than a complete dial. It was described as a 'Pivot Micrometer', the picture having been copied from one found in a French publication by Ferdinand Berthoud 'Essai sur L'horlogerie' Published in 1763.
Davycrocket
Attached Thumbnails
rivett608
Davy You beat you me to it.... I was going to to look in the very same book to see about your gauges. I am glad you found it and I even more glad you found it in Ted's book. He would have been very happy that you found the book useful. Ted was one of my best friends and I miss him a lot since he passed.
davycrocket
Hi Rivett,
Wow , you have the book as well.
I bought it back in 1991 with some of the money that I got From IBM when I retired.
A couple of Years later I called in to the Clock and Watch museum in Prescot (UK) to show a Chronometer to the curator. He was expecting me and was to briefly leave a group of visitors that he was showing around. When he saw my unique chronometer with a Spherical balance spring he called the visitors saying gentlemen come and see your Real Reason for coming to England this week. Ted was one of those visitors and gave me a signed watchpaper to put into my book .
I was shocked today when I looked him up on the computer and discovered that he had passed away.
To save you getting segs on your eyes looking through those 678 pages, the relevant pages that I found were 102 , 306, and 485.
Rgds
Davycrocket ( FBHI)
Like
rivett608
That is kind of funny.... I know the trip he was on that year and he tired to talk me into coming with that little group........ I wanted too but could not afford it. I have some of the photos he took on that trip and I'll have to find them, I don't think there were any from Prescot.
I have one of his watch papers in a gift he gave me...... a wonderful silver drafting set most likely made by Thomas Heath, circa 1760........ he just loved as he put it "these second hand tools"
And if you looked him up on the net you see he did 6 books, HST was the biggest but the others are good too.... I think they can still be ordered from his sons...... he printed less of each one as I recall.... something 1500 of HST, 1000 of OHST, and maybe only 500 of the last two..... each has a little more information in it along with his newest additions to his collection, you know most of what was pictured was his, including the books and catalogs. I learned so much staying up late in his library...... I spent many of nights that way. You can just imagine what it would be like to play with a collection like his? I know it is hard to say what will be in the future but I don't think there will ever again or even can be a collection like his in one place...... While it is all spread to the corners of the world now I feel so lucky that I was able to purchase many of my favorite items.... some of which are here in my office as I write this.
BTW seeing you are from Warrington, I have a 1801 Peter Stubs catalog.....
Dave WW
Quote:
Originally Posted by rivett608
And if you looked him up on the net you see he did 6 books, HST was the biggest but the others are good too.... I think they can still be ordered from his sons......
Thanks for the tip! I bought the wheel-cutting engine book from Mr. Crom years ago, and regretted not being able to afford HST. I thought I'd missed the chance to order it directly- it shows up on various online booksellers for an inflated price.
How much overlap is there between Horological Shop Tools and Horological and Other Shop Tools?
They seem to be available here:
Books on Antique Horological Tools and Old Trade Catalogues
-Dave
rivett608
There is very little overlap in these two.... there is a little bit of overlap in the "Trade Catalogs" which has a big section on John Wyke...... there is also a little overlap in "Lancaster Tools"....... here is what Ted did... as he added more things to his collection he wrote about them, sometimes in the process he learned a lot more about things he had shown in earlier books so he covered them again with the new knowledge so while the tool may be shown in a photograph in a later book there is new information about it..... in all I would guess there might only be 5 or 10% of this sort of thing.
If one is interested in this subject and can afford these I think you should put them high on your want list.
Davycroket in the UK had posted photos of some un-identified mics in his collection... I hope he re posts the photos here in this thread. Here is what was said about them....
Seeing your thread about early micrometers prompted me to dig out my strange micrometer.
It was made in UK by W Fox and Sons of Smethwick. It says REG DESGN No 839947.
It's range is 0 -0.5" with quite big graduations of 0.001"
The wheel in the end view picture is 1.5" in Diam, making the graduations nearly 1/10th" apart .
I can find no information about it , so I have no idea of its age.
Google provided one hit.
Back in 2003 in a Home Engineering Forum a guy said he had one but also said he could find no information. Even the Reg Desgn No was not to be found.
Perhaps Mr Fox only made 2 !!!
Davycrocket
Attached Thumbnails
Asquith
Titanium
Well, that's an odd one for sure. Looks like it's designed to stand up to rough usage rather than being for precise measurements. Plate or sheet rolling mill?
Looking at the numbers on the dial, it seems to be relatively modern. The only other Fox micrometer I've seen is a fairly modern tube mic that I have:-
Small tube micrometer
davycrocket
Yet another measuring instrument.
Hi Asquith
I was reading your post in the earlier thread by Rivett, and when I started to read the sentence:-
Quote
"Imagine a protractor, with a pin going through the centre. Attached to the pin on the front is a finger pointing to graduations on the ‘protractor’. Also attached to the pin, but on the other side.........."
I thought " Wow here comes my strange measuring device"
But no, you then went on to describe something different.
So here is my device that starts :-
" Imagine a protractor, with a pin going through the centre. Attached to the pin on the front is a finger pointing to graduations on the ‘protractor’. Also attached to the pin, but on the other side" , (and now mine continues) :-
"Is a lever with a tiny fusee-like chain attached like in an aneroid barometer.
The lever, which has a fulcrum pivot near the top, and then a tiny closed knife edged pincer, has a pin at it's lower end which protrudes though a curved slot the front plate.
The pointer normally points to 0 on the 0-360 rotary scale, and when the pin is moved in the slot, the lever following it pulls the chain causing the pointer to rotate and the knife edged pincer opens though a small arc. The lever returns to it's normal position via a light spring action." The spring is not visible so I assume it must be inside the small drum on the centre spindle round which the several turns of chain are wound. It stands flat on its three legs in a nice blue lined original box. The dial and pointer are protected by a domed glass. I got it from an elderly watchmaker so perhaps it's use was horological measurement . Maybe it's a comparator rather than a measuring device like the Douzieme gage.
There is no name or any other marking. Do you have any Idea what might have been its purpose.? I supose I should put a known guage in the gap to see what graduation it translates to.
Davycrocket
JST
Possibly a "Grossman Gauge"?
I hve been trying to track down a picture of one since seeing it mentioned in Goodrich some time ago,
While there are some lever-type dental gauges of that name, the horological folks say it was a 3" or so dial gauge with the measuring place at one side. They even produced a reference to an illustration, of course in a book I do not have.
Like
rivett608
Davy Your first micrometer is a English design bench mic I think from the 1st half of the 20th century.... I have one just like it by Moore & Wright.
Your other gauge is used by watch and clock makers....... I think the are Continental, made somewhere around the French Swiss border in the late 19th century..... I'll try to look through some catalogs tomorrow to find it.....
Asquith
Davy,
Your instrument with the dial is certainly intriguing. Judging by the lettering on the dial, I too would say French or Swiss.
Regarding your mic in post #12, which Rivett says he has a Moore & Wright equivalent, I found something similar in the 1923 Buck & Hickman catalogue. It’s a Brown & Sharp ‘Sheet Metal Gauge’ No. 222. Same principle, but hand held, for single hand operation, ‘especially convenient for sheet metal workers and handlers’.
The rolling mill mics were different, having a very deep frame.
As an aside, a curiosity in the 1923 catalogue is a sheet metal micrometer, B&S No. 220, described as one of the earliest forms of micrometer put on to the market. It stands on three legs, but otherwise the picture is too small to figure out what’s going on.
Like
L Vanice
Quote:
Originally Posted by rivett608
Davy Your first micrometer is a English design bench mic I think from the 1st half of the 20th century.... I have one just like it by Moore & Wright.
Your other gauge is used by watch and clock makers....... I think the are Continental, made somewhere around the French Swiss border in the late 19th century..... I'll try to look through some catalogs tomorrow to find it.....
I had an identical dial caliper with fusee chain, still in a leather-covered storage case. I thought it 19th century, not 20th. I bought it from a local jeweler and sold it long ago. But I am sure it was absolutely identical.
I still have three of the second type caliper. I think the subject came up in another thread here a while back, and I posted pictures then. They were certainly used by watch and jewelry workers into the 20th century. One of mine is American, a circa 1946 Charles Moe diamond weight gauge. It came with a set of tables for calculating the weight of a diamond without removing it from its setting, just from measurements.
Moe gauge picture: Hammel, Riglander & Co./N.Y. : Moe's Patent Diamond Gauge
Larry
davycrocket
As It had been suggested that my dial type Gauge might be Horological , I turned the pages one at a time in a Large book I have, written by an American gentleman called Theodore Crom. It has the title 'Horological Shop Tools 1700-1900' and sure enough I found my item listed in an 1886 Tool Catalogue produced by LEVY, DRUFUS & Co of 11 MAIDEN LANE NEW YORK. It was right next to a picture of a Douzieme Gauge that I mentioned .
So I think both are really comparator type, and not measuring tools The company was described as a 'Watchmakers and Jewelers supplier' It was available with 100 divisions or 360 divisions like mine . But does not suggest a Maker. A further picture later in the book suggests that the Gauge is Swiss dating from 1860 or earlier.
Interestingly, earlier in my book is a picture of a Similar but simpler version of my Dial type Gauge. It just has a graduated quadrant rather than a complete dial. It was described as a 'Pivot Micrometer', the picture having been copied from one found in a French publication by Ferdinand Berthoud 'Essai sur L'horlogerie' Published in 1763.
Davycrocket
Attached Thumbnails
rivett608
Davy You beat you me to it.... I was going to to look in the very same book to see about your gauges. I am glad you found it and I even more glad you found it in Ted's book. He would have been very happy that you found the book useful. Ted was one of my best friends and I miss him a lot since he passed.
davycrocket
Hi Rivett,
Wow , you have the book as well.
I bought it back in 1991 with some of the money that I got From IBM when I retired.
A couple of Years later I called in to the Clock and Watch museum in Prescot (UK) to show a Chronometer to the curator. He was expecting me and was to briefly leave a group of visitors that he was showing around. When he saw my unique chronometer with a Spherical balance spring he called the visitors saying gentlemen come and see your Real Reason for coming to England this week. Ted was one of those visitors and gave me a signed watchpaper to put into my book .
I was shocked today when I looked him up on the computer and discovered that he had passed away.
To save you getting segs on your eyes looking through those 678 pages, the relevant pages that I found were 102 , 306, and 485.
Rgds
Davycrocket ( FBHI)
Like
rivett608
That is kind of funny.... I know the trip he was on that year and he tired to talk me into coming with that little group........ I wanted too but could not afford it. I have some of the photos he took on that trip and I'll have to find them, I don't think there were any from Prescot.
I have one of his watch papers in a gift he gave me...... a wonderful silver drafting set most likely made by Thomas Heath, circa 1760........ he just loved as he put it "these second hand tools"
And if you looked him up on the net you see he did 6 books, HST was the biggest but the others are good too.... I think they can still be ordered from his sons...... he printed less of each one as I recall.... something 1500 of HST, 1000 of OHST, and maybe only 500 of the last two..... each has a little more information in it along with his newest additions to his collection, you know most of what was pictured was his, including the books and catalogs. I learned so much staying up late in his library...... I spent many of nights that way. You can just imagine what it would be like to play with a collection like his? I know it is hard to say what will be in the future but I don't think there will ever again or even can be a collection like his in one place...... While it is all spread to the corners of the world now I feel so lucky that I was able to purchase many of my favorite items.... some of which are here in my office as I write this.
BTW seeing you are from Warrington, I have a 1801 Peter Stubs catalog.....
Dave WW
Quote:
Originally Posted by rivett608
And if you looked him up on the net you see he did 6 books, HST was the biggest but the others are good too.... I think they can still be ordered from his sons......
Thanks for the tip! I bought the wheel-cutting engine book from Mr. Crom years ago, and regretted not being able to afford HST. I thought I'd missed the chance to order it directly- it shows up on various online booksellers for an inflated price.
How much overlap is there between Horological Shop Tools and Horological and Other Shop Tools?
They seem to be available here:
Books on Antique Horological Tools and Old Trade Catalogues
-Dave
rivett608
There is very little overlap in these two.... there is a little bit of overlap in the "Trade Catalogs" which has a big section on John Wyke...... there is also a little overlap in "Lancaster Tools"....... here is what Ted did... as he added more things to his collection he wrote about them, sometimes in the process he learned a lot more about things he had shown in earlier books so he covered them again with the new knowledge so while the tool may be shown in a photograph in a later book there is new information about it..... in all I would guess there might only be 5 or 10% of this sort of thing.
If one is interested in this subject and can afford these I think you should put them high on your want list.
