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Bevel gear for LeBlond lathe. Need help.

FBaloy

Plastic
Joined
Apr 8, 2017
I am looking for someone to cut a bevel gear for my 1908 LeBlond lathe. It is a 22 teeth 12 pitch 14 pressure angle bevel gear. I have photos I can email to you and would of course be happy to compensate you for your time and expertise. I would like to get the lathe up and running asap. Please let me know.
Thanks
Fred Baloy in Pomeroy Ohio
 
Last single bevel gear I had quoted, properly made on a Gleason planer, was $1000 for a 5" dim gear. Unless it is unobtainable anywhere else, you need to try to figure a work around. Second option is to have one cut on a horizontal mill or shaper.
 
Is it the double ended job in the apron Fred? Thumbnail from 1910.

I am looking for someone to cut a bevel gear for my 1908 LeBlond lathe. It is a 22 teeth 12 pitch 14 pressure angle bevel gear. I have photos I can email to you and would of course be happy to compensate you for your time and expertise. I would like to get the lathe up and running asap. Please let me know.
Thanks
Fred Baloy in Pomeroy Ohio
 

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Starting about Post #277, I fixed Matt's some years ago, but it involved no gear making, just replacing the material between the gears and figuring out how to attach the existing gears to the new piece made. This was a 30" lathe while yours is far smaller and WOULD involve gear cutting

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ing-12-000-lbs-lathe-277845/?highlight=Moving

For anyone to address cutting the 22 teeth they will have to know the mating gear tooth count to calculate pitch cone angle

Whoever cuts it, if a mill is used they will need a BEVEL gear cutter which are THINNER to pass thru small end of tooth

This cutter will have to be small enough in diameter to NOT cut much into material between gears

These added difficulties are pointing this towards a shaper with a ground to suit cutting tool

ON EDIT - there is a work around you know. You can reverse lead screw at head stock and just use the one gear you have left to feed which ever way you want

ON EDIT - we determined on Matt's that L&S used some form of MALLEABLE IRON on this item - not something you want to try welding on

Good info from 1916 in the chapter on bevel gears

Internet Archive: Error
 
These added difficulties are pointing this towards a shaper with a ground to suit cutting tool
Pretty sure the original is just milled. Should be doable as a hobby, I don't think o.p. wants to pay for this. I can see ten hours in it. Or more. :(
 
I am looking for someone to cut a bevel gear for my 1908 LeBlond lathe. It is a 22 teeth 12 pitch 14 pressure angle bevel gear. I have photos I can email to you and would of course be happy to compensate you for your time and expertise. I would like to get the lathe up and running asap. Please let me know.
Thanks
Fred Baloy in Pomeroy Ohio

Fred, we received your email and I will respond to it right after this. Yes, we can help you. As John points out, there is some more information required, but it is achievable. ( if John tells you that you need something, it is best to believe him :) ) Thanks for writing.
 
To quote myself.....

This cutter will have to be small enough in diameter to NOT cut much into material between gears

Thumbnail shows how larger diameter milling cutters get after the material between the two gears

From a 10 year old layout.
 

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Don't get all worked up (maybe pop a nitro) but I may have what you need!!
Some measurements would be helpful of yours. Mine is 22 tooth a litle worn but no missing teeth.

Have a look. It is yours for postage if it will work for you.

Had to dig deep into the bowels of gear buckets and found this piece.100_0789.jpg
 
Don't get all worked up (maybe pop a nitro) but I may have what you need!!
Some measurements would be helpful of yours. Mine is 22 tooth a litle worn but no missing teeth.
Have a look. It is yours for postage if it will work for you.
Had to dig deep into the bowels of gear buckets and found this piece.View attachment 197828

There you go, Fred. I can guarantee you that postage from Tommy1010 to you will be MUCH less expensive than making the gears. Still happy to help if you like, but you should do yourself the favor of taking Tommy1010 up on his offer. ( maybe give him a few bucks for the effort and storage fees, too ) :)

Aside, and speaking to John's advice about cutters, I had not seen the part in person yet, but to be honest I was preliminarily thinking of making the gears separately and then laser welding to the tube-like part. Any known issues with this idea on that machine? ( not familiar with that lathe ) Would make the set up and manufacture a fair amount less complicated.
 
... to be honest I was preliminarily thinking of making the gears separately and then laser welding to the tube-like part.

This is never going to happen because the costs are just too high for the customer base but ... if I had a Haas and a contouring fourth axis and lived in a shack in the woods so my time was worth nothing, I bet you could make straight bevels with straight-sided V-shaped milling cutter.

First rough the teeth at the root angle, then generate the teeth by rotating the blank in time with a spindle up-down movement, similar to the way a Maag generates spur teeth with a rack-shaped cutter. You could make a generating pass, then move the cutter over along the root cone and make another pass, until you reached the end .... or possibly use a large-diameter cutter and just a single pass at the middle, like the 14 machines do. Or like a P&W tooth grinder.

Once you figured out a basic program it shouldn't be too hard to adjust it to fit other parts. And the advantage over contouring with a ball end mill is that you don't have to worry about the tooth shape ; the relative motion between cutter and part would take care of it.
 
I have done an acceptable bevel gear on a shaper. The 1940s Mark's Handbook I read said it simply couldn't be done. I had seen bevel gears on 120yr old machines that had marks at the end of the tooth that were obviously cut on a horizontal mill and I KNEW not every machine shop at that time had access to a Gleason gear shaper, so there was a way to do it.

Had to get a 1927 Colvin and Stanley Machinist's Handbook to get the details of how it was done on a horizontal mill and then reverse engineer the process. You use a typical involute gear cutter, but the one you select is for a much finer tooth count than for a spur gear. There is a fair amount of mathematical calculations you go into to get the bevel angle and all that determined, then the work is set up in a dividing head, at that angle. You get the center of your disc, then step the table off center a given amount, more than for a typical spur gear, then roll the work in the dividing head towards the cutter a certain number of divisions. Then you make your cut and index the rest around at the same setting.

I hand ground a shaper bit using a template and blued the HSS with ink, then scribed the shape with a diamond scribe. Ground the bit with clearance until no light on my template. Set up the shaper exactly as described for the horizontal mill. I think it was a 12 or 16hr job (it's been almost 20 years ago), but the end yielded a functional 35 tooth 5" diam bevel gear that engaged and ran in the head of a big 100+ yr old radial drill.

Whole point being, there are ways to do it, but it is a LONG complicated and slow process. The tooth form cut this way is not perfect in form and would be very short lived at high speeds and heavy loads, but for something like this feed tumbler, it would indeed work for decades, and it is probably how that gear was made originally. If you see V shaped cuts on the tube at the small end of the teeth, that's exactly how it was made.
 
Given the era of the machine is it not possible that the gear(s) in question are parallel depth type rather than the modern true involute bevels. Parallel depth bevels are much easier to produce as the tooth form doesn't vary along the tooth as it does in the modern form and can be quite satisfactory. Especially at lower speeds and when a small gear runs against a large one.

Even if they are not parallel depth as original re-making the bevels and their mating gear in parallel depth form might well be much easier and cheaper overall than trying to match the old one. Was told by a guy who has done the job that parallel depth bevel gears aren't that much more difficult to produce on a horizontal mill than spur gears once you have the blanks set-up at the correct angle.

Clive.
 
Another technique you might consider is to have a lost wax process copy made of the good(better) gear.
the
Talix company in eastern NY (Walden, I think)does art and industrial casting. Since you have a good pattern, it should not be very expensive. They might even be able to cast the new gear in its proper place on the shaft.
Hugh
 
Hugo Bilgram was making true involute bevels well before this LeBlond was made. As near as I know, all his patents show GENERATING bevel gear equipment

Thumbnails show one of his shapers

Given the era of the machine is it not possible that the gear(s) in question are parallel depth type rather than the modern true involute bevels. Parallel depth bevels are much easier to produce as the tooth form doesn't vary along the tooth as it does in the modern form and can be quite satisfactory. Especially at lower speeds and when a small gear runs against a large one.

Even if they are not parallel depth as original re-making the bevels and their mating gear in parallel depth form might well be much easier and cheaper overall than trying to match the old one. Was told by a guy who has done the job that parallel depth bevel gears aren't that much more difficult to produce on a horizontal mill than spur gears once you have the blanks set-up at the correct angle.

Clive.
 

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Given the era of the machine is it not possible that the gear(s) in question are parallel depth type ...
Even if they weren't, that would probably be the most reasonable way to make new ones. You could do that fairly easily.

@johnoder : I don't think many people have access to a Bilgram machine :)
 
It's been a while but I've milled a few parallel depth bevels. The catch is that the math is based on the small end rather than the large end. This allows a standard cutter to fit between the teeth with no tedious filing, and unfortunately also means that you need to get lucky finding a cutter (standard type- DP or metric) or are willing to single point it, change tooth counts, cone length etc. They are not interchangeable with other tooth forms. Originally intended for small shops to produce bevels in wartime.

Look at the tops of the teeth, the face. Parallel depth teeth have a tapered face. My old planer dating back to the 1850's has bevels on top that sure look like accurately generated teeth. No file marks apparent.

Some easy info here:
Gear Design Simplified
ISBN 978-0-8311-1159-5
Franklin D. Jones - 1961
 








 
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