Bringin' Home A Springfield 16" Lathe - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Dose it have a clutched reverse?
    I didn't have time to evaluate the carriage reverse feature fully, prior to the disassembly. According to www.lathes.co.uk, "...Tool Room" versions differed from the "Standard" in having a feed-rod reverse to the carriage drive and a relieving attachment...".

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by morestainless View Post
    ...seems to be complete, with the exception this "doodad", which is missing: http://www.docsmachine.com/projects/...eld/sp050.html. I guess I'll have to try making one.
    Just a note on the drop out mechanism for the single tooth clutch that you mention. It appears to be the same design as what my Pratt and Whitney model C Lathe.
    Take warning that if the spindle rotation is reversed and the apron is ran to a stop for the disengagement that something is going to break!

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Dose it have a clutched reverse?
    -No. At least mine doesn't, and I'm told it wasn't generally offered on Springfields of that vintage. It's a typical plate clutch- lift the lever to engage, drop the lever to disengage, push the lever down to brake. (I think.)

    The oil pump is driven off the input shaft to the headstock- oil is only pumping when the clutch is engaged. If there was a reverse at the clutch, the pump would run backwards.

    I didn't have time to evaluate the carriage reverse feature fully, prior to the disassembly. According to www.lathes.co.uk, "...Tool Room" versions differed from the "Standard" in having a feed-rod reverse to the carriage drive and a relieving attachment...".
    -That's for the carriage, not the headstock/spindle.

    The third rod down, across the front of the bed, is the leadscrew reverse. That actuates the vertical shift lever that you probably found directly under the headstock. And that lever moves a "single tooth dog clutch" found under the left-hand-end cover right below the outboard end of the spindle.

    Basically, it allows you to feed or thread up to a pre-set stop on that rod, and once the carriage reaches that stop (and moves it a bit further) it will disengage the feed. The you just slap the feed lever the opposite direction, and the carriage powers itself back the other way.

    Trust me, practice first before you take a proper cut.

    Take warning that if the spindle rotation is reversed and the apron is ran to a stop for the disengagement that something is going to break!
    -And this is why I thought it "curious" you still have both miter gears on the carriage.

    Because with both a leadscrew reverse (which selects a leadscrew direction at the input to the quickchange gearbox) AND a carriage reverse (which selects whether the carriage feeds left or right, controlled AT the carriage) it's possible to have the carriage feeding towards the headstock, but the leadscrew already in reverse.

    Meaning the carriage could try and hit the stop on the feed rod, and push it to the left to disengage the feed- but the rod is already pushed to the left- it's already in "reverse".

    If you're not paying attention, you could at the very least push the stop on the rod along (it's supposed to have a brass pad to prevent marring) or worse, overcut your part or hit the shoulder, or at absolute worst, run the carriage/compound/tool into the chuck.

    On mine, the carriage direction selector had been disabled at the factory- the lever that you can flip to the left or the right to select direction was there, but I only had one of the two possible miter gears on the grown drive gear, and the "reverse" selection hole for that lever had been spot drilled, but not bored to fit the selector lever pin. And the hole had been filled with a wooden plug, which had been painted over- near as I can tell, with the original layer of paint.

    You might consider doing something similar- perhaps making a small aluminum plug that goes in the "reverse" hole in the apron selector, to keep it from being used.

    Doc.

  5. #24
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    I guess the Springfields didn't have reverse at all then? I was going to add you'll lose a spindle motor reverse with the single phase motor, but if you can't spin the spindle backwards for loss of lube then it doesn't matter I spose.

    Spindle reverse is useful if it has it.

  6. #25
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    When I got mine, it had a factory switch panel bolted to the gearcase to the left of the QCGB (such as in this example) which had just two buttons- start and stop.

    The motor had been replaced at some point in history, though, and an extra drum switch added to provide reverse.

    Photos of other Springfields online show three and four-control switch panels, occasionally including a rotary switch or a domed indicator light. Few photos show these switches clearly, so I have no idea if any of them include reverse.

    All of them that I've seen, though, use the same oil pump, which is a two-rotor eccentric PD design that I'm pretty sure is not reversible- that is, flow reverses with rotation reversal, unlike a piston pump that doesn't care which direction the the drive goes.

    As such, I'm reasonably certain few, if any, were equipped with reverse, and even if they were, it was probably recommended it be used sparingly, as the gearbox would be without fresh lube.

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    I guess the Springfields didn't have reverse at all then? I was going to add you'll lose a spindle motor reverse with the single phase motor, but if you can't spin the spindle backwards for loss of lube then it doesn't matter I spose.

    Spindle reverse is useful if it has it.

    The single phase motor is CW/CCW capable, so spindle reverse is only a matter of switch wiring/position. My single phase Logan has a 3 position rotary switch providing spindle reverse. Nice that the 12" L-1 chuck won't go spinning off the spindle nose in reverse, like the threaded 5" Logan chuck likes to do.

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    Since one was not advised to run the lead screw over 159 rpm in reverse, perhaps the second bevel gear provided a carriage/cross slide reverse capability with the lead screw in 159+ rpm foreward speeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by morestainless View Post
    Since one was not advised to run the lead screw over 159 rpm in reverse, perhaps the second bevel gear provided a carriage/cross slide reverse capability with the lead screw in 159+ rpm foreward speeds.
    -Um, not quite.

    It's not a restriction on the speed of the leadscrew (or drive rod) it's a restriction on the use of the leadscrew REVERSE at spindle speeds over 159 rpm.

    You don't want the carriage to be moving to the left at the higher spindle speeds, then "slam it into reverse". Keep in mind the dog clutch is in the mechanism that feeds power through the entire QC gearbox and the carriage and it's geartrain. That's a lotta mass to suddenly stop and slam back the other way. Hard on gear teeth, hard on the dog clutch, hard on shear pins, etc.

    Doc.

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  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    -Um, not quite.

    It's not a restriction on the speed of the leadscrew (or drive rod) it's a restriction on the use of the leadscrew REVERSE at spindle speeds over 159 rpm.

    You don't want the carriage to be moving to the left at the higher spindle speeds, then "slam it into reverse". Keep in mind the dog clutch is in the mechanism that feeds power through the entire QC gearbox and the carriage and it's geartrain. That's a lotta mass to suddenly stop and slam back the other way. Hard on gear teeth, hard on the dog clutch, hard on shear pins, etc.

    Doc.
    That's what I meant to say - don't reverse the lead screw at spindle speeds over 159 rpm...but I took that to mean, don't use reverse at speeds over 159 rpm, period. In that case, the carriage reverse gives you friction feed reverse at higher spindle speeds. That's the only use I see for the extra bevel gear.

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    Here's how the large lathe pieces are being transported - strapped to a form-fit, 4x4/plywood/plastic sheet sled. We have snow. They get hauled in the back of the pickup (a few trips) save for the bed, which goes on a 12' trailer. After a 3 mile journey, they slide down a snow covered, 4x4/plywood ramp, into the snow covered front yard. Then they get winched (12,000 lb Mile Marker hydraulic) down 13 stairs (ramped and snow covered), around a 180 degree turn onto the snow covered railroad tie landing, up 3 steps of a snow covered ramp, and through the 28" wide back basement door. Then dollies take them down the hall, around another wide, 180 degree corner, an opposite 90 degree turn, where a gantry crane waits to put them back together. It will be in good company down there - Bridgeport 1J mill, Hardinge HCT lathe, Logan 10" lathe, Atlas horizontal mill, Atlas 618 lathe, and a Bostomatic 300 CNC 4 axis mill.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20170103_165115.jpg  

  13. #31
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    I know it's not completely definitive of the amount and type of wear, but, for what it is worth, here are the digital indicator readings for the carriage drop relative to the tail stock flat way, from the head stock end of the bed, every 6 inches:

    *0" - .0000"
    *6" - .0003"
    12" - .0013"
    18" - .0015"
    24" - .0017"
    30" - .0016"
    36" - .0010"
    42" - .0003"
    48" - .0001"
    54" - .0002"
    60" - .0002"
    66" - .0003"

  14. #32
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    Roughly constructed motor mount has to go...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20170104_143946.jpg  

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    Tail stock pedestal, carriage, taper attachment, hinged motor bracket, and various other parts loaded.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20170104_162006.jpg  

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    Head stock end pedestal getting ready.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20170104_162015.jpg  

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    Cold lathe parts...brrrr. The basement is not yet prepared for receiving the Springfield. 2 degrees F today.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20170105_112016.jpg  
    Last edited by morestainless; 01-05-2017 at 06:03 PM.

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    Unloading the "South" pedestal.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20170105_114617.jpg   20170105_115541.jpg  
    Last edited by morestainless; 01-05-2017 at 06:03 PM.

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    This helically grooved rod support insert is pretty chewed up since it was missing it's mating "doodad", and the bare rod was banging aroung inside it. It appears to be merely cast lead or pewter, so that clears up what is going to break if you get your apron and your lead screw reverses confused.

    Thanks to Doc for offering to supply doodad measurements. I think I'm going to be better off making a new one from scratch and then recasting it's mate, so they match perfectly. Thanks again, though.

    The small apron dog clutch, between the apron bevel gears, enabled forward/reverse changes of the carriage/cross slide without stopping and at any spindle speed, when using the apron reverse lever. Springfield continued offering this feature in their later tool room models, so they obviously didn't consider it a mistake, rather perhaps, something that tool room machinists (as opposed to production machinists) could take advantage of, without breaking something.

    I am going to make good use of it, I am sure. I like having more than one way to do something.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20170105_121404.jpg   20170105_121212.jpg   20170105_121458.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by morestainless View Post
    It appears to be merely cast lead or pewter, so that clears up what is going to break if you get your apron and your lead screw reverses confused.
    -That's what's known as babbit, a lead/tin bearing mixture that's very commonly used on older machines, even for things like headstocks, and driveshafts.

    And they didn't do it to make that part break- that end isn't where any of the force is. They did that simply because it was an easy, expedient way to make a mating internal helix groove- a feature that would be very difficult to machine even today, let alone eighty years ago.

    Thanks to Doc for offering to supply doodad measurements. I think I'm going to be better off making a new one from scratch and then recasting it's mate, so they match perfectly. Thanks again, though.
    -Might I suggest doing both? Copy mine and see if you can get it to fit the existing casting. It doesn't look all that badly damaged in there, and the babbit is soft enough you can either push peened material back into place or just trim it away with an Exacto or something.

    If it proves to be too badly damaged to save, then go through the trouble of melting it out and recasting- you'll still need the doodad anyway, and the "pitch" of the helix is kind of tied to the action of the rod.

    The small apron dog clutch, between the apron bevel gears, enabled forward/reverse changes of the carriage/cross slide without stopping and at any spindle speed, when using the apron reverse lever. Springfield continued offering this feature in their later tool room models, so they obviously didn't consider it a mistake, rather perhaps, something that tool room machinists (as opposed to production machinists) could take advantage of, without breaking something.
    -I fully admit I'm making a few speculations about the reverse mechanisms and the reasons thereof.

    But the reverse lever- that is, the little flipper bar right below the power feed handles on the apron- is not meant to be switched under power. In use, you'd feed one direction (by engaging the feed lever) and then stop (again, using the feed lever) then switch the reversing lever, then reengage the feed using the feed lever.

    Only the single-tooth dog clutch should be operated under power, and thus, under a certain spindle RPM simply to reduce shock to the dog tooth.

    I am going to make good use of it, I am sure. I like having more than one way to do something.
    -Never said "get rid of it". Point in fact, I've been thinking of making or having made a new miter gear for mine (the original being a bit chewed up anyway) and boring the other lock hole for the reversing lever so that it can be properly engaged.

    With the LSR, there's honestly no real reason for it, but like you, I like having the option.

    I might, however, have a new plate etched up giving a warning on using it though.

    Doc.

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    Thanks Doc.

    Babbit. Yes. Tin/lead. I could recast with pewter and get rid of the lead. It's a double start thread, 3.475" long, making just short of one complete revolution. Not difficult to measure from what is there. Just give it the appropriate amount of clearance.

    Tony Griffiths' info is a tad misleadibg. He says you can shift the apron lever without stopping, whatever that means. Wishfull thinking on my part. The 14" manual agrees with you. The shift lever can not be moved to neutral (down) with the friction feed engaged. I don't think I'll have a problem with the stops, lead screw direction, and the apron shifter, once I get the thing put back together and have a hands on feel of it.

  22. #40
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    We might be conflating levers.

    There's a hand lever to engage/disengage the leadscrew reverse on the right-hand side of the carriage, second up from the clutch lever bolted to the bottom of the casting.

    This is what controls the single-tooth dog clutch mounted at the left end of the lathe, between the spindle and the quickchange gearbox.

    That controls the entire feed and threading drivetrain- forward, neutral and reverse, and both the threading leadscrew and the feed drive rod. This one can be engaged/disengaged "on the fly", at least at the lower spindle speeds. For threading, for example, you can close the half nuts at any point (regardless of the threading dial) and thread up to a certain point, then simultaneously put it in "reverse" and retract the compound- the leadscrew reverses and you "thread away" (while just cutting air) back to your starting point, then put the lever back into forward. As soon as the dog clutch is in position, it automatically engages and you make your second cut.

    The threading dial isn't really even necessary, since you never have to disengage the half nuts, and the dog always engages at the same point.

    The other lever is a small one that flips left and right (or left 'loose', hanging down, for threading) located at the bottom of the front face of the carriage, right below the feed and cross-feed handles.

    This one only controls forward/reverse feed at the carriage- it doesn't change direction of the rods, it only changes direction of the feed of the carriage. This one can't- or shouldn't- be changed while under power.

    Doc.


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