Brown and sharp #10 taper

snakeknuckles · Feb 20, 2020

Hello: I have a B&S # 1 1/2 universal mill with a horizontal spindle. I went through this machine about 20 years ago. I very rarely use it but every once in a while I find a job that it is best suited for. Like now I need to cut a new keyway in my saw's mandrel shaft. I have acquired a couple of #10 taper arbors for this machine but none of them turn true without wobble. Does anyone know where I can get a new arbor custom machined for this machine? Or what other options?

-Thanks

enginebill · Feb 20, 2020

Most any machine shop should be able to make one for you. Have you checked the runout in the socket in the spindle to make sure that it is not out of round? You can usually find used ones on Ebay.

johnoder · Feb 20, 2020

#10 taper arbors for this machine but none of them turn true without wobble

"Arbors" - like in your photo - have some length

Are they bent?

Are the spacers out of parallel? That situation will sure make them "wobble"

If you put something GOOD and SHORT (like a center) in the spindle and IT runs true, its the arbors or spacers

If the naked arbors run fairly true but run out with spacers tightened up it is the spacers

Then there are the cutters - is the arbor hole still in the center? All it takes is to sharpen them once without bothering about runout

snakeknuckles · Feb 20, 2020

Yes The spindle taper is running dead nuts true. the dial indicator shows that the wobble is in the arbor shaft.

Citxmech · Feb 20, 2020

You may be able to straighten the arbor.

M.B. Naegle · Feb 20, 2020

To my knowledge, the only guys who are stocking Brown & Sharpe taper tooling (#7 and #9 are the most common, not sure about #10) are getting them out of the orient, and while they often do the job just fine, there will occasionally be a dud or improper dimensions in the mix.

Eventually I need to tool up my Brown & Sharpe #12 production horizontal (after it's back up and running) which also uses the B&S #10 taper, and my plan is to just make the tooling myself. Mine doesn't have a draw bar and only works with tang'd tooling. Annealed 4140 should be fine for most tools, and you can harden it if needed. All of the dimensions you need are in Machinery's Handbook. The only thing you might need to decide is how long you want them to be. If you have a small tool-room lathe with a taper attachment and a mill, you're half-way there.

Dr. Hillbilly · Feb 21, 2020

If your arbors are straight but not concentric with the #10 taper then you could throw them on a lathe and turn or grind the taper concentric to the arbor.
Hopefully you have a lathe with a through-bore which can swallow the arbor so that only the taper projects out of the chuck (no steady rests required)
LeBlond and most of the vintage lathe manufacturers offered grinding adaptors for their machines. They just advised that a tarp be thrown over the ways to protect the machine from the grinding dust.
Traditional practice is to rotate the work relatively slowly into the grinding wheel which rotates quickly, so almost all of the relative speed comes from the wheel. However you can also do just the opposite and turn the work at high speed against a static grinding stone. The wheel will break down quickly so you must increment it between each pass, and it works best with a very soft bond which is self-dressing, or single layer electroplated CBN which does not dress at all.
A few of the vintage grinding adaptors used a rotating grinding wheel on an arbor which was not motorized. the work was turned against the wheel at high speed which would rotate the wheel, and the grinding arbor had a brake so that the wheel would drag at lower relative speed.(which approximates the process of just using a static stone, or even a segment of a broken wheel)
If you are lucky the taper was not properly hardened and you can just turn it.
Of course to get machine allowance on the taper you will need to shorten it a bit.
The worst that can happen is that you scrap the arbor, which is already sunk cost.

alum100k · Feb 22, 2020

Oh for the flying. The huge taper isn't bent, it is the arbor. The arbor needs rebent into approximate shape it was. What's all this grinding Biz?. dAMN, it is bad enough when the arbor is just slightly bent. Imagine or know how the milling tools/ wheels react to ground down arbor. It ain't right, no way.

alum100k · Feb 22, 2020

Thats why they had different length arbors. One little milling wheel suspended by anything less than the proper spacers, will dig into the work. It may grab terrible tooth depth and since the machines are so strong, something has to go. It may be the arbor got bent at double depth. Why wouldn't it? Place a shorter arbor, adjust the OA or ram to accommodate the shorter arbor. The wheel will go through steel and the raw power of the machine is actually used.

snakeknuckles · Feb 23, 2020

Hello again: I do have a a lathe that I could attempt to make new arbors with. I dont have a tool post grinder however. I would like to spend most of my time on the projects that I need a straight arbor for and not making a straight arbor... Can anyone recommend a shop that could make me a couple arbors (1" and 1 1/4")... maybe even 1 1/2"? A buddy of mine recommended oxtoolco but I haven't heard back from them...

tx

thermite · Feb 23, 2020

snakeknuckles said:
Hello again: I do have a a lathe that I could attempt to make new arbors with. I dont have a tool post grinder however. I would like to spend most of my time on the projects that I need a straight arbor for and not making a straight arbor... Can anyone recommend a shop that could make me a couple arbors (1" and 1 1/4")... maybe even 1 1/2"? A buddy of mine recommended oxtoolco but I haven't heard back from them...

tx

Ummh.. "before there were TP grinders..." All we had - or NEEDED .. was a half-decent compound - cut made with "stepover" if travel wasn't up for a single pass, plus:

- a decent "long angle lathe bastard" file - which they still sell.

- "backed" abrasives. As-in made "flat" by the metal or wood bar back of them.

And the patience to do the fit properly by trial and error.

Blue goop (or lipstick from the poor-lady's store for all of one US dollar) was optional.

Not as if you need a DOZEN arbours, is it?

If you cannot just order-up decent starting metal from Speedy, Online, McMaster, Moses Glick, or such, then go ahead and "just do" THIS?

Why TF even OWN a lathe or mill?

Any OTHER work will need to be sent-out ALSO? It's only an ignorant arbour. Not a tourbillon watch or a Norden bombsight.

Quitcher kvetching, cease making a problem out of a solution, and "JFDI".

Rick Hand · Feb 24, 2020

I've made B&S 9 arbors on a very worn lathe using that method and they work fine. I have a proper lathe file and have made a couple abrasive holders from crs that hold 1" wide abrasive cloth that I like for this type work. They mimic hand files.

thermite · Feb 25, 2020

Rick Hand said:
I've made B&S 9 arbors on a very worn lathe using that method and they work fine. I have a proper lathe file and have made a couple abrasive holders from crs that hold 1" wide abrasive cloth that I like for this type work. They mimic hand files.

I made two #1 MT and one #2 MT, all three to fit a JT to mount chucks. I knew not which JT, just matched wotever it was..

....using a WORN Walker-Turner drill press as my "lathe".

Stock items. I could have afforded store-bought. Just had to find out if I COULD.

They fit well. The # 1's were not for "mainsteeam" use, but such as it was, they served for 40-plus years.

And the #2 & Chuck still is.

Turns out it ain't rocket insemination, after all, is it?

alum100k · Feb 26, 2020

My reply to Dr. Hillbilly was crude insofar as he knew about spider support at the end. He provided good advise about grinding the taper. All my B & S #9 and #10 use a drawbar which go fair deep. So I figured the threads would be out of line if the taper was ground.
I appreciate the information which followed.

thermite · Feb 26, 2020

alum100k said:
My reply to Dr. Hillbilly was crude insofar as he knew about spider support at the end. He provided good advise about grinding the taper. All my B & S #9 and #10 use a drawbar which go fair deep. So I figured the threads would be out of line if the taper was ground.
I appreciate the information which followed.

Threads won't necessarily be off the centerline by enough to matter.

Even if they were, they are NOT going to cock the long-run of a B&S taper out of seated alignment. At. All.

Compare the length of bearing surface in contact to a 5-see-yah-later or an Are-Ate.

JST · Feb 26, 2020

If the mill has a drawbar, then the fine finishing of the taper is not required if it fits decently. Draw it in and it will be fine. I have made all the tooling on one of the mills here, simply because I could not find it anywhere. Not that hard to do. You can get a decent finish with standard techniques, turning, files, strip of sandpaper, etc. Blue it up and check fit, get it to at least fit credibly, and the drwbar wll take care of it.

But, first, if the arbor seems bent, then first check the taper (spindle and arbor) for dings, and if OK, then the arbor is probably just bent. Bend it back, carefully, and proceed.

If it is too long, then either use bearing sleeves, or if that is not possible with the machine, make a shorter arbor. Yeah, 4140, I have used that for the purpose, I used HT, you don't really have to, it was what I had.

alum100k · Feb 26, 2020

JST said:
If the mill has a drawbar, then the fine finishing of the taper is not required if it fits decently. Draw it in and it will be fine. I have made all the tooling on one of the mills here, simply because I could not find it anywhere. Not that hard to do. You can get a decent finish with standard techniques, turning, files, strip of sandpaper, etc. Blue it up and check fit, get it to at least fit credibly, and the drwbar wll take care of it.

But, first, if the arbor seems bent, then first check the taper (spindle and arbor) for dings, and if OK, then the arbor is probably just bent. Bend it back, carefully, and proceed.

If it is too long, then either use bearing sleeves, or if that is not possible with the machine, make a shorter arbor. Yeah, 4140, I have used that for the purpose, I used HT, you don't really have to, it was what I had.

We need to get to proper fixture for the B & S taper drive while bending the arbor back. Between centers is out of the question as is bending upon the the bearings of the machine. Some machinable trunions which clamp the taper to the press, then another at the end. The reason it was bent.

thermite · Feb 26, 2020

alum100k said:
We need to get to proper fixture for the B & S taper drive while bending the arbor back. Between centers is out of the question as is bending upon the the bearings of the machine. Some machinable trunions which clamp the taper to the press, then another at the end. The reason it was bent.

*yawn* Ignorant Vee blocks. Torch, perhaps.

Skilled hand and eye and it could be good as new in short order.

Hardly the first item longer that it is wide to ever be bent. Or straightened again.

What have you got to lose?

alum100k · Feb 27, 2020

thermite said:
*yawn* Ignorant Vee blocks. Torch, perhaps.

Skilled hand and eye and it could be good as new in short order.

Hardly the first item longer that it is wide to ever be bent. Or straightened again.

What have you got to lose?
!
This advise and not to escape me. Suspension by other ways.

thermite · Feb 27, 2020

alum100k said:
...not to escape me. Suspension by other ways.

...rope? ... cable ties? ... masking tape? ..

Uhh.. I've used chain and a bottle jack, but .. I guess it depends on where bent.. and what KIND of "bent"?

Brown and sharp #10 taper

Plastic

Attachments

Stainless

Diamond

Plastic

Aluminum

Diamond

Aluminum

Cast Iron

Cast Iron

Plastic

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Diamond

Cast Iron

Diamond

Diamond

Cast Iron

Diamond

Cast Iron

Diamond

Similar threads