Carter & Hakes horizontal bench mill

Bob Farr · Jun 27, 2010

I was very fortunate to acquire this nice little Carter & Hakes horizontal mill yesterday. The table X and knee Z axes are lever fed. The Y axis has a mic dial and a provision for a ball handle (missing). The single T-slot table is 12" long, the X travel is 3", Y travel 3", and Z travel 2". The spindle bore is round with a set screw like an endmill holder, though this may not be the stock configuration.

It's an interesting little machine and a great match for my Sloan & Chace 5-1/2 lathe and Drummond bench shaper. Unfortunately I haven't found much info on the 'Net about it so I'd like to hear from any other owners who can share their experiences and setups.

Thanks,

Bob

Bob Farr · Jun 27, 2010

Bob Farr said:
*** The spindle bore is round with a set screw like an endmill holder, though this may not be the stock configuration.

Well I'm a bit lazy! It is an endmill holder, the spindle bore has a collet taper after all. The gentleman whom I got the mill from mentioned that he might have some tooling for it at another location, so perhaps I'll have some collets soon.

L Vanice · Jun 27, 2010

Bob, give some dimensions on that end mill holder and I will see if it might be a listed collet type. The holder looks new, so I suspect the original collets were the conventional type with male threads. Perhaps you can determine whether the spindle bore is large enough for a draw bar tube with female thread.

Larry

mdougherty · Jun 27, 2010

Bob, Nice score, the info I have comes Kenneth Cope's "American milling machine builders 1820 - 1920". The company in question was founded in 1899.
Your machine was introduced in 1904 and was produced till 1920. Hope that helps a little, thats all I've got. Good Luck, Mike

Bob Farr · Jun 27, 2010

Thanks Mike, I appreciate your response and the info.

Larry, the endmill holder if probably owner-made and is drawn tight with some all thread and a nut. The spindle has an internal drive key for the collet. Here are some dimensions:

L Vanice · Jun 27, 2010

My guess for the collet is a Rivett No.4, either old style or new style. Both have a .750 body and length including the male thread of 2.75 and 20 degree cone. The old style has a thread .665-20. The new style has a thread .750-20, which allowed larger bars to go clear through. I only have one 4NS collet for my Rivett lathe, and would like to find more. Or you could buy my beautiful Rivett with thread cutting and milling attachments and dump that S&C.

Another possibility is a Whitcomb 1898 Model No. 4, with a .748 body, 2.187 length, 15 degree cone and .745-15.24 thread. But I think it would be too short.

See what the cone angle is.

There is also a Seneca Falls 9" lathe collet with .750 body and 20 degree cone, but it is 3.25 long.

These collets are in the 1907 Hardinge Cataract catalog.

Larry

Bob Farr · Jun 27, 2010

L Vanice said:
*** Or you could buy my beautiful Rivett with thread cutting and milling attachments and dump that S&C. *** Larry

I wasn't aware that you had a Rivett 608 for sale. That's an impressive machine, but I'm in no position to seriously consider a purchase right now. I'd love to see some pictures though: please post some!

I don't have a convenient way to directly measure the cone angle (I really need to cure that!). The accumulated error of my poor measuring skills and even worse trigonometry puts it at 19.09-degrees, so it's probably 20-degrees.

Bob

L Vanice · Jun 27, 2010

Bob. it is a Rivett No. 4 and I did post pictures here when I bought it a couple of months ago. The thread cutting feature makes it a very rare lathe, but not a 608 by a long ways.

Larry

Bob Farr · Jun 28, 2010

Your Rivett No.4 is an interesting machine Larry, especially with the threading feature. I'll keep an eye out for 4NS collets for you.

My S&C bed has the t-slot for the threading drive mechanism, but I was not fortunate enough to get the unusual "sub bed" threading attachment itself with the machine. I did get a nice set of collets with it, though, and an unusually long bed extension which doubles the distance between centers.

Bob

spaeth · Jun 29, 2010

Carter & Hakes

Bob,
Thanks for posting the pictures of your bench miller. I have a Chicago Machine Tool co. mill which resembles yours. The general appearance
and several features are very similar. I was glad to see the good close up pics
of the wooden handles. I am looking for some as mine are missing. I too plan
to mount the little fella on a bench with a small lathe. A Dalton B-4. Would
be interesting to know what these guys did back in their day. Mine had
some small unslotted round head screws in the knee and base so it probably
did some production slotting. You can see photo's of the Chicago on this forum. Antique Horizontal Miller ID by spaeth.
Nice find, good luck with the project.

spaeth

L Vanice · Jun 29, 2010

Old Hardinge lathes used wooden file handles with bare steel ferrules for the handles on their turrets and lever cross slides. I have modern file handles in boxes with labels by Lutz that are identical to the old ones except the ferrules are zinc plated. I have an older box that says Blue Nose (an old American Indian chief) on the label and the ferrules are blued but otherwise identical, so that may be what Hardinge used.

Lutz handles (long ferrule) are still made (since 1904), so that is an easy source of fairly authentic replacement handles. They are bare polished hard maple, so you can stain and varnish them as you wish. The Hardinge handles are dirty and greasy when I buy them, so I don't think they were varnished. http://www.mainewoodconcepts.com/lutztool.html

Larry

Bob Farr · Jun 29, 2010

Spaeth,

I found your thread and pictures of your CMT mill. That's a handsome machine, as it the Dalton!

It looks like Larry has you covered with a good source for handles. If you like I will remove a lever from my machine and take some detailed pictures and measurements. Perhaps that will help you to make some authentic looking replicas of the steel portion of the levers.

Bob

Dennis Turk · Jun 30, 2010

[ I too plan
to mount the little fella on a bench with a small lathe. A Dalton B-4. Would
be interesting to know what these guys did back in their day.
spaeth[/QUOTE]

Hi Spaeth

We keep a registry on Dalton lathes and was wondering if I have information and pictures of your B-4? What its your lot and serial number and any accessories you have with the lathe.

Dennis

spaeth · Jun 30, 2010

Carter & Hakes

Bob, Larry & Dennis,

Bob your photos filled in the missing "what should they look like" answers
about those old style handles.
Larry thanks for the info about the lutz wooden handles and that's the direction I'll go when I can return to this project.
Dennis I think my B-4 is in your registry. Serial # 5071 Lot 5. 5" 4jaw
6" face plate 3c collets and handwheel 11 change gears & misc toolholders.
Send a PM if I'm not in there.
Thanks Men
spaeth

Bob Farr · Jul 9, 2010

L Vanice said:
My guess for the collet is a Rivett No.4, either old style or new style. Both have a .750 body and length including the male thread of 2.75 and 20 degree cone. *** These collets are in the 1907 Hardinge Cataract catalog.

Larry

Larry,

I've done some digging around on the 'Net and found a reference in the machine manufacturer cross reference table of the current Hardinge catalog to Carter & Hakes Machine Co.

Catalogues - spindle-tooling-for-manual-cnc-lathes - hardinge-workholding

C&H is listed on page 41 as having a 40S collet, and the 40S dimensions are given on page 43. Of course, they are a special order product at this point so I'll watch for a used set first. Any chance you have some?

Bob

L Vanice · Jul 9, 2010

The collet Hardinge calls 4OS is the Rivett no. 4 old style and has a 1/2" capacity clear through. The 4NS (new style) is identical except the thread is larger so that a 5/8" bar can go clear through the collet and draw bar. If the spindle bore is large enough, you can get a 4NS collet and make a draw bar to match. I have a Rivett no. 4 lathe and have not found many 4NS collets for sale. The 4OS is probably even harder to find. There is one 4NS collet on eBay at present.

Dimensions from a 1981 Hardinge catalog:
4OS thread .660-20
4NS thread .800-20

You won't find a tap of either size, so making a draw bar is the same amount of work for either size thread.

Larry

Bob Farr · Jul 9, 2010

Larry,

Thanks for the info. The light bulb finally went on for me: 4OS is Four-Old Style, not Fourty-"S", and 4NS is New Style. Doh!

I have to make a drawbar. The back bearing OD in the Hardinge catalog is listed as .826 for the 4NS, and .750 for the 4OS. The ID of my spindle bore is .750, so it looks like I'd be limited to a 4OS collet anyway. Is this another dimly-lit moment for me, or am I on the right track?

Bob

L Vanice · Jul 9, 2010

Yes, my memory played a trick on the body diameters. Maybe it was the 5OS and 5NS that had the same body but different threads.

Anyway, I think 4OS collets will be hard to find. If I were you, I would turn up some cutter arbors and end mill holders in the common sizes and skip the collets. Or get a few cutter arbors with straight shanks to fit your own end mill holders.

Larry

Al A. · Aug 30, 2011

Sorry to dredge up an older thread, but I found this searching on Carter & Hakes. I just pocked up one of these mills last week in a "package deal" and was wondering if you had found any other interesting info on it.

Mine has had some "modernizing" done to it and is no longer quite original. But it was sort of too neat to pass up and it seems there will surely be something good I can end up doing with it.

Have you got yours set up and working? Just curious really.

Thanks,
Al

pinnip1 · Jul 10, 2012

Carter and Hakes Milling Machine (Benchtop)

Awaken ancient thread (sorry about that). Anyhow, I have my grandfather's Carter and Hakes mill and would like to find a set of 4OS Collets for it or sell it. Anybody have a set (or a few) for sale? I only buy US though. Beggars can't be choosers, but I can't spend good money on bad junk. The mill is like it just came out of the box. Glass oil canister on top, perfect orginal paint, on top of cast iron stand. I'll get a picture in once I figure out how to do it (age)

Thanks

Carter & Hakes horizontal bench mill

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