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Champion 20" Camelback Drill - bent quill, missing parts - is there a parts network?

dschad

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 15, 2016
Champion 20" Camelback Drill - bent quill, missing parts - is there a parts network?

Hi all,

I can bring home a 20" Champion Camelback drill press for basically the cost of few hours of my time and gas, but unsurprisingly it is not without problems. I would need some parts. Probably the same parts everyone else needs.

My question - is there reasonable hope of finding missing parts? Is there an underground camelback drill press parts network? From what I can see, the easy problems are a missing table crank mechanism and the auto-downfeed pulley system. And then the big problem the - bent spindle sticking out the top. I could live without the first two items, but the spindle is kind of a killer.

Anyone have a feel on how difficult it is to find parts, and are the parts reasonably priced? Is it better to wait for a complete one to pop up (like the one I just missed!) or drag this home and beat the bushes for a spindle and associated parts?

Any thoughts and experiences would be welcome.

Thanks,
Don
 
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I'm not aware of a parts network, but I bought one that also needs the feedworks mechanism replaced but is otherwise in good shape. Thinking I may be crazy now as I'm contemplating paying twice as much and driving 4 times as far to get a parts machine... My it is a slippery slope.
 
I'm not aware of a parts network, but I bought one that also needs the feedworks mechanism replaced but is otherwise in good shape. Thinking I may be crazy now as I'm contemplating paying twice as much and driving 4 times as far to get a parts machine... My it is a slippery slope.

You might have an issue when you pay more for parts machines than the original machine you're "rescuing because it was so cheap and needed a home". Been there and done that multiple times. :)
 
If the quill is actually bent I'd skip it. Any good quill you find will be in a machine, so, like, buy that machine.

On a side note, how does one bend a drill press quill?
 
I wonder if you are correctly referring to the bent part ? The "Quill" is unlikely to be bent. The Quill is the hollow round section in which the spindle turns.
The Quill has gear rack teeth milled on it for the downfeed, and has bronze bushings or similar in it to act as bearings for the spindle. The spindle consists of a heavy bottom section which has a female Morse taper, and a "shaft" which is machined integrally with that bottom section. The "shaft" has journals which run in the bushings or bearings in the quill (which does not turn, only moves vertically for feeding the drill into the work or pulling back up). Above the journals on the spindle there is a straight section of shafting which will have a continuous keyway in it. This passes thru the "crown gear" and projects above it. This projecting portion of the spindle is what I think you are referring to. The odds of the actual quill being bent are slim to none.

As for the spindle having a bend in the upper portion of the exposed shaft, this is extremely likely. Mishandling of the drill when moving it around is the likely cause. Parts for these old Camelback drills are made of unobtainium, and your only source of parts is to find someone who has a similar drill they are parting out due to severe damage elsewhere on it. The more realistic alternative is to dismantle the drill and attempt to straighten the spindle shaft. This can be done on a shop press with a set of support blocks and some careful work. The spindle will need to be set up in a lathe to determine where the bend is located and how much of a bend it is. Chucking the business end of the spindle (the Morse Taper socket portion) and rolling the lathe while using the toolpost and a lathe tool as a fixed reference point is how to get a rough idea of what you are up against. Straightening the spindle's shaft is another matter. Cold straightening with a shop press is one way to get things close to straight. Possibly, some flame straightening (using an oxyacetylene torch with a brazing tip to heat one side of the shaft on the "outside" or "heel" of the bend) and cooling with a wet rag or compressed air also can be tried for very small moves. I've done both methods to straighten bent shafting. Final confirmation of shaft straightness is done in the lathe with the shaft supported between the centers of the lathe and using a dial indicator.

As I wrote, I doubt very much the actual quill is bent. The spindle's upper shaft portion can be straightened to run acceptably for this type of machine tool.
A good machine shop or electric motor shop may also be able to do the straightening.

You can wait a long time for another camelback drill to come along, or you can jump on this one. I do not know how plentiful old machine tools of this sort are in your neck of the woods, nor do I know how badly you are wanting a camelback drill press. If you want a project that is do-able, I would not walk away from this drill if it were priced low enough. A deal breaker on this sort of drill would be a busted mainframe casting or major parts missing. I saw one fellow who had a camelback drill in his home shop that was a real sad story. He'd gone on quite a ride into a neighboring state to buy a camelback drill in good running condition. It was a nice clean machine when he took ownership of it. He got it to the door of his home shop and dropped it off the trailer. It landed hard and busted the upper part of the mainframe casting (the part which has the "branch" to the rear to support the top shaft) with the break being through the column just where the machined section of the column began. Not one to give up on the drill, this guy then attacked it with a buzz box welder and a load of "Ni Rod" (nickel alloy rod for cast iron repair welding). The welding was horrible to behold and nothing I'd want to depend upon. How square the spindle was to the table after that repair is anyone's guess. That is a drill I'd run away from and would not take if it were given to me- unless I needed parts off it. Your drill sounds quite repairable and nothing too insurrmountable.
Look up "flame straightening" of shafting online and you may be surprised at what can be accomplished to move steel around. Done it loads of times to correct distortion following welding on heavy structural weldments as well as to straighten shafting.

Oldtimers do not look to buy parts and working on these old machine tools means using oldtime skills and making parts.
 
I wonder if you are correctly referring to the bent part ? The "Quill" is unlikely to be bent. The Quill is the hollow round section in which the spindle turns.
The Quill has gear rack teeth milled on it for the downfeed, and has bronze bushings or similar in it to act as bearings for the spindle. The spindle consists of a heavy bottom section which has a female Morse taper, and a "shaft" which is machined integrally with that bottom section. The "shaft" has journals which run in the bushings or bearings in the quill (which does not turn, only moves vertically for feeding the drill into the work or pulling back up). Above the journals on the spindle there is a straight section of shafting which will have a continuous keyway in it. This passes thru the "crown gear" and projects above it. This projecting portion of the spindle is what I think you are referring to. The odds of the actual quill being bent are slim to none.

As for the spindle having a bend in the upper portion of the exposed shaft, this is extremely likely. Mishandling of the drill when moving it around is the likely cause. Parts for these old Camelback drills are made of unobtainium, and your only source of parts is to find someone who has a similar drill they are parting out due to severe damage elsewhere on it. The more realistic alternative is to dismantle the drill and attempt to straighten the spindle shaft. This can be done on a shop press with a set of support blocks and some careful work. The spindle will need to be set up in a lathe to determine where the bend is located and how much of a bend it is. Chucking the business end of the spindle (the Morse Taper socket portion) and rolling the lathe while using the toolpost and a lathe tool as a fixed reference point is how to get a rough idea of what you are up against. Straightening the spindle's shaft is another matter. Cold straightening with a shop press is one way to get things close to straight. Possibly, some flame straightening (using an oxyacetylene torch with a brazing tip to heat one side of the shaft on the "outside" or "heel" of the bend) and cooling with a wet rag or compressed air also can be tried for very small moves. I've done both methods to straighten bent shafting. Final confirmation of shaft straightness is done in the lathe with the shaft supported between the centers of the lathe and using a dial indicator.

As I wrote, I doubt very much the actual quill is bent. The spindle's upper shaft portion can be straightened to run acceptably for this type of machine tool.
A good machine shop or electric motor shop may also be able to do the straightening.

You can wait a long time for another camelback drill to come along, or you can jump on this one. I do not know how plentiful old machine tools of this sort are in your neck of the woods, nor do I know how badly you are wanting a camelback drill press. If you want a project that is do-able, I would not walk away from this drill if it were priced low enough. A deal breaker on this sort of drill would be a busted mainframe casting or major parts missing. I saw one fellow who had a camelback drill in his home shop that was a real sad story. He'd gone on quite a ride into a neighboring state to buy a camelback drill in good running condition. It was a nice clean machine when he took ownership of it. He got it to the door of his home shop and dropped it off the trailer. It landed hard and busted the upper part of the mainframe casting (the part which has the "branch" to the rear to support the top shaft) with the break being through the column just where the machined section of the column began. Not one to give up on the drill, this guy then attacked it with a buzz box welder and a load of "Ni Rod" (nickel alloy rod for cast iron repair welding). The welding was horrible to behold and nothing I'd want to depend upon. How square the spindle was to the table after that repair is anyone's guess. That is a drill I'd run away from and would not take if it were given to me- unless I needed parts off it. Your drill sounds quite repairable and nothing too insurrmountable.
Look up "flame straightening" of shafting online and you may be surprised at what can be accomplished to move steel around. Done it loads of times to correct distortion following welding on heavy structural weldments as well as to straighten shafting.

Oldtimers do not look to buy parts and working on these old machine tools means using oldtime skills and making parts.

Thanks everyone for the replies, esp. Joe for the lengthy description.

Regarding what is actually bent - you are indeed correct - I meant spindle, not quill. I even took the time to look up the difference (I wasn't sure which was which), but I guess I am unable to keep things straight for more then 30 seconds...

Regarding the straightening the ...thingy... - my first thought was to try to straighten it cold using a fly press and a V block. That failing, I have an induction forge and/or gas and easily heat it up and get it blacksmith-straight. Maybe even pretty-good straight, but I was figuring that it has be to dead on to run through the *quill* and/or not vibrate the machine out the front door?

I will see if I can post a picture later of the spindle, but I would say that it is bent to about 40 degrees out of line. Thinking about it I wonder if it is extractable. I suppose that everything would need to come out, removing the *quill* at the same time as I it seems unlikely to be able to pass through it.

Maybe heat in place and use the quill to straighten it as it is pulled through?

Is the quill just a solid with a hole in it, or does it have bearings/babbit inside?

Thanks,
Don
 
It depends what you want to spend your time doing... fixing machines, or using them to do other jobs. This style of drill is not all that uncommon, and really nice examples can be found if you're willing to travel a bit. I'd hold out for a complete and undamaged example if I was in the market. I bought my original-paint Royersford 21" drill for $300, if I remember right.

Andy
 
When that drill press was built is was done on manual machine. Why can't you make the part you need? If you have the part and it is bent make a new one. Pulleys or gearing for the downfeed can also be made. As long as you have the proper dimensions.
 
So of the parts that are there how complete is it? And in what condition are those parts? That is the real question. Are the gears missing/tired? Does the table look like a hyperactive woodpecker got loose? Everybody wants parts but no one wants to admit their machine should be the parts donor. Like my wife says "you can't save them all". Make an effort to save those worth saving.
 
When that drill press was built is was done on manual machine. Why can't you make the part you need? If you have the part and it is bent make a new one. Pulleys or gearing for the downfeed can also be made. As long as you have the proper dimensions.

Very good suggestion.

Incidently, one bends the center spindle (moving part in the quill) by dropping the drill on its side and the spindle happens to hit the ground first.

I would disassemble - check out your quill bearings for wear/replacement - or keep track of those little balls. With the spindle in hand, mount it between centers and find out where the high spots are.

Then using a Harbor Freight 20 ton press, set up V-blocks (and a half circle block where the press touches for push down) and play around with it. You may need to adjust where your supports are or your push block but eventually you will "feel" your way to straightness.

It is possible to get it within 0.0005 of straight if you take your time, use emery cloth to keep the shaft "surface flat" and take your time. Did I say take your time?

If you don't achieve 0.0005, you may be able to settle for less depending upon how worn the rest of the parts are. What guides the spindle first is the upper and lower quill bearings. The top-most bevel gear is a close second.

It took milliseconds for the DP to fall over. It may take all day to straighten it. Keep telling yourself it is fun.

Joe in NH
Who re-bored a Royersford 21 upper bevel gear Babbitt bearing IN PLACE using the spindle/quill as boring bar/guide - and then bushed/machined the upper bevel gear gear journal to fit the now oversized upper guide. When it was done I could successfully bore Model A cylinder blocks.
 
dschad:

The flypress and blocks are a good method to start off with for cold straightening. A little at a time, nothing drastic.

I would NOT heat the spindle up until it is "plastic" (red hot) to work the bend out of it. Using the "blacksmith method" will wind up with more problems (experience talking here) for straightening a shaft. It is one thing if you are straightening a bent chunk of bar stock or a bent pinch bar, but quite another when we are talking small amounts of movement to get something like a drill press spindle straightened.

Flame straightening is quite precise. You will need an oxyacetylene torch with a small brazing tip to apply very concentrated heat in just one spot at a time.
There are two excellent youtubes showing flame straightening, one by "Turnwright Machine" (Fenner), and one by Keith Rucker. Rucker uses the method I'd use for the drill press spindle straightening and gets things within a few thousandths for runout when he calls it "done". He does the straightening with the part (the arbor for a woodworking shaper) chucked in a lathe and uses nothing more than a plastic tub of water and a sponge to douse the areas he has heated. Little by little he draws the arbor into true and gets rid of a bend (or very nearly so). For something like your old drill, this would be more than adequate for repairing the spindle.

Do NOT use the quill to force the spindle back to straight, whether doing it hot or cold. These old drills often had no bearings in the quills, but relied on the quill being made of cast iron. The cast iron quill was bored to create two bearings, with cast iron being an excellent bearing material in its own right. The spindle journals ran right in the bored fits in the cast iron quill. Some other of the old drills used pressed-in bronze bushings. Ball thrust bearings were commonly used with some adjusting nuts to set the end thrust or preload.

Using the quill as a forming die or similar is not going to work. My guess is the bend happened somewhere just above the crown gear. I'd leave the drill assembled with that bad a bend in the spindle, and do a preliminary flame straightening in place. You will not be putting enough heat into the spindle to travel far enough to hurt anything, and you will be rapidly cooling the spot)s) you heat for the flame straightening.

My thought is to take any guards or similar off so the crown gear is exposed. This is where it gets a bit crude, but for rough straightening in place, I'd place a carpenter's framing square on the top of the teeth of the crown gear. With the square spanning across the gear the other leg of the square is approximately vertical (or should be parallel to the spindle if the spindle were straight). Using the square as a reference, see which way the spindle is bent. Another method is to rig up some kind of fixed reference point such as a piece of lumber or steel flat bar clamped to the drill's frame. This reference should be fairly close to the spindle. Roll the spindle around and you will see which way the spindle is out relative to your reference. A good eye is what it takes at this point. Once you have determined which way the spindle is bent or cocked, get the torch and a container of water and some rags and do a preliminary straightening. It may take a few times, and do not heat more than a spot perhaps 3/4" in diameter on one side of the spindle only. The object is not to heat a complete band, and we are not looking to "hot work" the spindle by bending it when it is at a "plastic" heat. Rather, we are talking of using the contraction of a locally heated area to pull the spindle back into straightness.

After the preliminary straightening, you should then be able to dismantle the drill and do a final straightening using flame straightening and dial indicators.
It's a case of "metal magic" rather than brute force or blacksmithing.

FWIW: About 25 + years ago, I bought a used Cincinnati-Bickford 25" Camelback Drill. It was in excellent shape, just covered in grunge which acted as a preservative. It was built with a factory motor drive and has an original 3 HP GE repulsion-induction motor, an old heavy-framed brute of a motor. All the oilers were intact, one or two stray holes in the table and no broken or missing parts. I paid 200 bucks. I spent 65 on new brushes for the motor (Helwig Carbon, an excellent source of brushes for the odd and ancient motors and generators and they know which carbon composition works for which application). I took a piece out of the leather belt as it had gone slack, and cleaned the drill. All the working parts are nice and crisp. The thrust bearing on the spindle had gone south, so I replaced it with ball thrust bearings top and bottom. My Kaman distributor fixed me right up for maybe 9 bucks a bearing as I recall. I've been using my camelback drill ever since.

I have no idea what camelback drills are fetching nowadays, whether collectors have driven the prices up. However, you are in New Hampshire, not what I'd call a "desert" for finding old used machine tools. If you were in a place like Taos, New Mexico or on an island in the middle of an ocean, I'd say this particular drill might be more of a "find". It comes down to how bad to you want a camelback drill, and are you prepared to pass on this one in the hopes that something better comes along. The gamble is you might wait quite awhile, and maybe not find a camelback drill at all. They do have a way of turning up, usually in the back of older shops or truck and farm machinery repair or fabricating shops. Regular machine shops have gotten rid of this type of drill a long time ago. My camelback drill came out of a heavy truck repair garage that was so old that it had started as a business building bodies for horse-drawn wagons. I got a few blacksmithing tools along with the drill, as I was the only one who seemed to know what they were.

Royersford was probably the last builder of these drills in the USA. I believe they were building them at least into the 1970's or early 80's. They built a lot of them under the "Excelsior" name or under their own name. A buddy of mine was given one by an oldtimer. It is about the closest thing to a factory-new camelback drill I have ever seen. It saw little use and the oldtimer was the original owner. He put a single phase motor drive on it and apparently did not use it much. Sometimes, these things fall into your lap, and sometimes no matter how hard you look and want them, there are none to be found.


I had given up on getting a camelback drill when I had occasion to be in a shop where we'd ordered a new body for a service truck. There was the camelback drill sitting, unused, out under a kind of lean-to off some shipping containers. I asked about it and was told "not for sale". A couple of months later, I got the word that the truck body shop was "consolidating its assets", so showed up with 200 bucks and got the drill. I knew of its existence and kept my ear to the ground. A fellow who knew that truck body shop knew I'd asked after the drill and got hold of me. I was lucky in that the camelback drill I got was in fine condition with little else needed to put it into good operating condition.

It's a roll of the dice as to whether to pass on this particular drill or grab it.
 
I have a Royersford camelback, which is essentially the same machine. Two observations, FWIW:

I have the power feed but have never used it. I think it would be useful if you are drilling big holes or punching through heavy plate.

Second, I think I read that your shaft is bent about 40 degrees. I would not recommend trying to straighten that cold. Too much residual stress and with that much bend, you risk cracking.
 
Again, many thanks to all. Really good points here. The most fundamental really is - do you want to drill, or fix a drill? Honestly both are fun. My mind says "wait for the good one", but my heart says "save the sad, broken one" (and my wife says "don't you already have something like that?"). I do know that I can't be too distracted for too long, so maybe I should follow that thought.

Just in case I want to go down the wrong path, I watched the flame straightening videos, and that was very interesting. I was aware of it in general for squaring up welds, etc, but never really thought about using it in a precise manner. I must admit that I am a bit skeptical about moving the end of the spindle 1"+ back into line, but since I just watched a video where they straightened a bridge girder - maybe it will work.

Where is what we are looking at (maybe not the 40 degrees I mentioned above, more like 20, but even so significant):

spindle.jpg


I don't have the press, but now I'm intrigued by the heat straightening. I will bend a piece of round stock and see if I can bend it back with my torch. Just in case.

Thanks again for all the replies. I'll report back.

Don
 
After looking at your picture this is what I would do. Cut off bent part. With spindle in lathe face off end and drill and tap 5/16 or maybe 3/8". Make a new but larger (1/16 or 1/8 larger) diameter end with a similar thread in it and with a short length of threaded rod screw them together. After "V" ing for weld weld around it. Put back in lathe using 4 jaw and steady and get the original part running true. Center drill the new extension and support with center. Turn over size repair to size. I repaired a small "standard?" size drill press this way where the spindle had broken at the slot for the wedge to remove the taper shank. I used a screw on chuck so I didn't need the taper socket. It has been fine for years. Just get a good weld with a deep V. Weld from both sides to minimize warp.
 
If you find a supplier of parts you would probably be shocked at the cost...I once bought a Buffalo 21" camel back drill complete with three phase motor attached.. The machine worked ok but the upper feed worm wheel was worn out.. I contacted Buffalo and they did stock that worm wheel at a cost of $300.. I paid $200 for the complete machine.. I bit the bullet and got the part but I think now I could cut a new worm wheel if I had to...Many times old machines are bought with just one part missing or worn out and the cost of a replacement is more than what was paid for the machine .... Ramsay 1:)
 
As bad as it is bent, I'd probably cut it off. Get a piece of stock 1/4 larger and vee both mating ends. Set it up in jig, weld it all the way through, then recut in lathe.
 
get it!
it will aways make a doner for someone who has a busted casting or other if you decide not to fix it or dont find the needed parts.
i have three now and one i bought as a doner drill but if possible i will get it up and running someday.
 








 
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