Champion Tool Works 12" Lathe - Carriage Auto Feed
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    Default Champion Tool Works 12" Lathe - Carriage Auto Feed

    Hi, I just acquired a Champion Tool Works 12" Lathe from early 1900.
    I do not have any documentation on usage, nor have I been able to find any.
    I DO have the auto feed working for the cross slide, and I can start it, stop it, and change its directions.
    I can't figure out how to get the autofeed working for the Carriage itself.
    Does anyone have experience or instructions for this model?
    I am including a picture of the full Lathe and a close up of the Carriage Controls with labels.
    Thanks for the help,

    DR

    lathe.jpg
    lathe-controls.jpg

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    The knob in the center of the apron, which you don't have labeled in your photo, looks like a friction clutch knob to me.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy FitzGibbon View Post
    The knob in the center of the apron, which you don't have labeled in your photo, looks like a friction clutch knob to me.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Thanks Andy, unfortunately, I am a beginner, so I don't know how to operate a friction clutch knob. What exactly would I need to do to engage the carriage auto feed using the friction clutch knob?
    Thanks,
    DR

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    Drudel:

    If you turn that knob clockwise, it should draw in the cone (or plate) on a friction clutch within the apron. When you do this, the knob will begin turning along with the gearing for the power feeds, so don't be surprised. To disengage the clutch for the power feeds, turn the knob counter clockwise.

    In most of these old lathes, this system of a knob to work a friction clutch was used to clutch the power feeds in or out. Typically, the lower shaft (below the lead screw) is used to power the feeds. This will have a keyway running its full length. There will be either a worm or a bevel pinion gear within the apron which slides along this feed shaft (sometimes known as a 'feed rod'). A 'captive key' in the bore of that worm or bevel pinion gear transmits the power from the feed rod into the gearing in the apron. In the gear train between the sliding gear and the feeds being driven there is usually a gear with a female cone bored in its face. This gear turns on a hollow shaft. In the center of the hollow shaft is a threaded stud, one end of which is screwed into the clutch friction cone, and the other comes thru the apron and ends with the knob. This gear is in the gear train to drive the power feeds.

    Screwing the knob clockwise will engage the power feed clutch, but you will need to have selected which type of feed you want- longitudinal (or 'long feed', along the bed) or cross feed before engaging the clutch. There is also usually a mechanical interlocking mechanism in the apron of the lathe. This prevents you from engaging both the power feeds and the half nuts/lead screw at the same time. If you were able to, there is a good chance that if the friction clutch did not slip, some of the gearing in the apron would be damaged.

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    What exactly would I need to do to engage the carriage auto feed using the friction clutch knob?
    Right - tight = feed engaged

    Left - loose = disengaged

    (just like turning a nut on a bolt)

    Often they will be STUCK disengaged - so need a little help getting UN STUCK

    Its the simplest sort of cast iron cone clutch - operated by a screw thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Michaels View Post
    Drudel:

    If you turn that knob clockwise, it should draw in the cone (or plate) on a friction clutch within the apron. When you do this, the knob will begin turning along with the gearing for the power feeds, so don't be surprised. To disengage the clutch for the power feeds, turn the knob counter clockwise.

    In most of these old lathes, this system of a knob to work a friction clutch was used to clutch the power feeds in or out. Typically, the lower shaft (below the lead screw) is used to power the feeds. This will have a keyway running its full length. There will be either a worm or a bevel pinion gear within the apron which slides along this feed shaft (sometimes known as a 'feed rod'). A 'captive key' in the bore of that worm or bevel pinion gear transmits the power from the feed rod into the gearing in the apron. In the gear train between the sliding gear and the feeds being driven there is usually a gear with a female cone bored in its face. This gear turns on a hollow shaft. In the center of the hollow shaft is a threaded stud, one end of which is screwed into the clutch friction cone, and the other comes thru the apron and ends with the knob. This gear is in the gear train to drive the power feeds.

    Screwing the knob clockwise will engage the power feed clutch, but you will need to have selected which type of feed you want- longitudinal (or 'long feed', along the bed) or cross feed before engaging the clutch. There is also usually a mechanical interlocking mechanism in the apron of the lathe. This prevents you from engaging both the power feeds and the half nuts/lead screw at the same time. If you were able to, there is a good chance that if the friction clutch did not slip, some of the gearing in the apron would be damaged.
    Thank you for the detailed explanation. I can't engage what appears to be a friction clutch by turning the knob. I am posting a video so you can see the behavior. The knob will rotate based on the direction that I set the feed to, but the Carriage remains still unless I move the manual carriage control. See the video for detail.

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    As John says, they commonly get stuck disengaged from lack of use. May require some disassembly to free things up.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy FitzGibbon View Post
    As John says, they commonly get stuck disengaged from lack of use. May require some disassembly to free things up.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Just want to check, on a typical friction clutch does the knob rotate by itself when it is disengaged? That is what mine is doing, and it will reverse and rotate the other way, when I change the feed direction lever.
    Thanks for helping.
    DR

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    Drudel:

    From your youtube, here is what I have seen:

    1. Your feed rod is turning.

    2. When you work the feed reverse lever on the apron, the direction of the rotating part of the friction clutch reverses direction.

    3. When you work the sliding gear for the cross feed, it engages and runs under power.

    4. When you move the carriage using the carriage crank, the rotating part of the friction clutch turns along with it.

    5. The part of the clutch which is turning was originally a knurled 'hand nut' or 'knob'. It looks like someone at some time in the past put 'pump pliers' or maybe a pipe wrench on that knurled knob. The knurling is worn almost completely off of that knob. Normal wear from a person's hand tightening and loosening that knob would never have taken the knurling so completely off of it. This is a clue that the clutch must have been slipping due to wear (or oil on the friction surfaces). Rather than address the problem, someone in the past figured that tightening that clutch knob with pliers or a pipe wrench would get the clutch to fully engaging.

    6. What I think may be happening is the friction clutch is partially engaged. Just enough drag is happening between the male and female cones of the clutch to work the cross feed under power, yet when you turn the carriage crank, you can 'overpower' the clutch and see the clutch knob turning.

    7. When the feed rod is turning, the clutch knob should not turn unless the clutch is engaged.

    Many of the older designs of lathes used what was known as a 'star wheel' for the clutch knob. This was a knob shaped sort of like a star with rounded contours. The reason was to enable a person with oily hands to get a good grip on the knob. South Bend, amongst others, used the 'star wheel' type feed clutch knobs.

    I think your clutch is engaged but is so worn that it is slipping. I'd suggest you get a light and a mirror and see if you can look up and into the apron's guts. Older lathes had what is known as a 'single walled apron. As such, if you use a mechanic's inspection mirror and a flashlight, you may be able to see the clutch assembly. It will be 'nested' inside a gear. There may be a pair of dowel pins to keep the clutch cone from turning freely when the knurled nut is tightened or loosened, or possibly a shaft key is used. When you are looking at the apron guts, with the lathe NOT under power, crank the carriage to move it manually. You are likely going to see that clutch assembly turn as a unit. If the inner (male) clutch cone is sucked tight into the female cone of the gear, and you can move the carriage manually with the power feed engaged (and the lathe NOT under power), the clutch is extremely worn and engaging just enough to have a little drag.

    With all the reduction gearing in the power cross feed, the slight engagement of the clutch is sufficient to let you have power cross feed. If you tried using the power cross feed on a heavy facing cut, chances are the clutch would slip and you'd have no power cross feed.

    What I'd suggest is to engage the power cross feed with the lathe NOT under power. Lock the carriage to the bed (there should be a binder or clamp screw for this).
    Put a chain wrench or pipe wrench on what's left of the knurled knob and hit it with a dead-blow hammer to turn it in the counterclockwise direction (Lefty Loosey as per John Oder). A sharp blow or two on the wrench handle may be sufficient to break loose the clutch cone. If the wrench and dead blow hammer do the trick, the wrench will drop freely. Take the wrench off and turn the knob counter clockwise by hand. Re-inspect inside the apron and you should see the clutch cone standing proud from inside the female cone in the gear.

    Where does that leave you ? The short answer is: still having a worn clutch. The long answer is to take the apron as far apart as needed to remove both the clutch and the gear it seats into. You may find that facing a little off the small-end (inside end) of the clutch cone will enable the clutch to seat more fully in the female cone. Or, you may find you have to make a new clutch cone. As John Oder notes, these are usually made of cast iron.

    The beauty of a lathe is that it is capable of making its own parts. If you have no other means available to you, using the lathe with a partially dismantled apron to make a new clutch cone or to 'clean up' the tapered female cone in the gear (if that surface is badly scored or chewed up), is one solution in immediate reach.

    Sources of cast iron for a new clutch cone: look at 'black iron' pipe fittings like screwed caps. You may be able to find enough usable cast iron in a threaded pipe cap to machine a new clutch cone from.



    As Andy FitzGibbon says, some disassembly may be required.

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    The friction clutch may not act on the power cross feed at all, as the cross feed is controlled the small pull knob near the cross slide screw. I've seen other old lathes set up that way.

    These drawings may be of some help in understanding the internal workings of the apron, though it shows a slightly different version of the machine that uses two friction clutches... one for cross feed and one for longitudinal feed.

    Champion Tool Works Co. - 1906 article - The New Standard 14-inch engine lathe | VintageMachinery.org

    My guess is that the longitudinal feed clutch is stuck disengaged. If you were able to tighten the once-knurled knob (which is rotating in your video) the nut at the center of it would likely also start rotating, and the carriage would feed along the bed.

    Mostly guesswork without being able to see the lathe in person... you might try putting a strap wrench on the friction clutch knob and see if you can move it at all.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    I don't believe the cross slide needs the friction clutch, it is just in or out by siding a gear with the pull knob. I think the friction clutch hand wheel needs to be turned clockwise to engage the clutch. The hand wheel is probably stuck and will need some persuasion with pliers or a strap wrench, you have your hand on the wheel in the opening still of the video. Even on my lathes, if I turn them counter clockwise with too much force by hand, they will get too tight to turn clockwise.

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    Thanks to each of you for being so helpful.
    I used a strap wrench but could not budge the knob, so I looked inside and made a video before I started using the mallet.
    I suspect the clutch has been stuck this way for some time. But not sure I am interpreting it correctly. If you all can spare the time, appreciate if you would review the new video and see if you agree with my guesses, and that I would need to clean out the whole thing and re-build the clutch.


    Thanks again,
    DR

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    The knurled knob has to spin freely on the shaft with the nut on it. When the knurled knob is turned clockwise the shaft with the nut on it will move towards you pulling the cone clutch into the gear. The knob is stuck and will need some force to release.

    Nothing looks dirty enough to prevent movement. Like I said anything more than a very light turn to the left on the cross slide clutch on my Greaves Klusman lathe will make the knurled wheel stick very tightly and I need to put pliers on it to free it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drudel View Post
    Thanks to each of you for being so helpful.
    I used a strap wrench but could not budge the knob, so I looked inside and made a video before I started using the mallet.
    I suspect the clutch has been stuck this way for some time. But not sure I am interpreting it correctly. If you all can spare the time, appreciate if you would review the new video and see if you agree with my guesses, and that I would need to clean out the whole thing and re-build the clutch.


    Thanks again,
    DR
    I'd say you have it right. As Bill says, it doesn't take a lot to stick that style of clutch open. My Lodge & Shipley is the same way. It has star wheels instead of knurled knobs, and they have a lot of hammer marks on them.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Drudel:

    I believe the threads you see between the clutch gear and the apron are the threads on the hollow boss (which you refer to as the 'surround") which the clutch stud and shaft turn in.

    What I am seeing is the friction clutch is fully disengaged. It pulls into the gear which appears to be a gold color. The clutch cone threads are frozen to the stud threads. If you lightly grip the formerly knurled knob when the lathe power feed rod is turning, the knob should stop turning in your hand. The only reason that knob does turn is due to a slight drag between the male and female clutch cones, probably with some oil creating what is known as 'viscous drag'.

    I'd put a box wrench on the nut on the end of the clutch stud and a chain or strap wrench on the (formerly) knurled knob. Try hitting the wrench handle to turn the knurled knob in a clockwise direction. This will turn the knob in a direction to engage the clutch, and should break things loose in the clutch stud threads.

    In looking at your youtube, there are some chipped teeth on the apron gears. Not serious enough to affect operation, but enough to have me wondering if the lathe had a crash (apron running under power feed ran into something solid such as running into the chuck). The fact the knurling is worn off the clutch knob has me thinking sometime in the past, a previous user of your lathe was either dealing with a slipping clutch, or taking heavy enough cuts to cause the clutch to slip and found it necessary to put pliers or pipe wrenches on that knob. Maybe the clutch had locked up on that previous user, maybe the clutch stud threads were tight (swarf in them ?) and they put the pipe wrench on the knob to unlock things. Whatever the reason, if you cannot free the clutch with things fully assembled, it will mean taking the apron apart to get to the clutch. I believe that with a strap or chain wrench (or a pipe wrench if you don't have the other types) and a few shots with a hammer on the wrench handle, the clutch knob should free up.

    As noted by Andy FitzGibbon, the power cross feed works by sliding gear, working off the same gear the clutch cone seats into. This gives a drive for the power cross feed independent of the clutch. That mystery is solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Michaels View Post
    Drudel:

    What I am seeing is the friction clutch is fully disengaged. It pulls into the gear which appears to be a gold color. The clutch cone threads are frozen to the stud threads. If you lightly grip the formerly knurled knob when the lathe power feed rod is turning, the knob should stop turning in your hand.
    Hi Joe, and thank you again for pouring your time into my problem. The thing I don't understand is that the gold colored gear is directly connected to the previously knurled knob. So I definitely can not stop it from turning when the feed rod is turning and the feed control is out of neutral. The only time, the knurled knob is free to turn independently, is when the feed control is set to neutral.

    So I am confused about hammering on a wrench to loosen the knurled knob as it has gear teeth that connect it directly to the feed rod.

    Appreciate some clarity on this if possible.

    Thanks, DR

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    Quote Originally Posted by drudel View Post
    Hi Joe, and thank you again for pouring your time into my problem. The thing I don't understand is that the gold colored gear is directly connected to the previously knurled knob. So I definitely can not stop it from turning when the feed rod is turning and the feed control is out of neutral. The only time, the knurled knob is free to turn independently, is when the feed control is set to neutral.

    So I am confused about hammering on a wrench to loosen the knurled knob as it has gear teeth that connect it directly to the feed rod.

    Appreciate some clarity on this if possible.

    Thanks, DR
    I'd guess that the knob is not actually "directly connected". It's just stuck in the disengaged (loose) position. What it's stuck on may indeed be directly connected, though.

    If it were mine, I'd disassemble that portion of the apron and understand how the clutch works before hitting it with any major force (like a hammer). Being a single wall apron, you may be able to do so without removing the apron from the saddle, or disturbing the feed rod and lead screw.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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    Loosen up on that nut (friction clutch) a turn or two, and then tap inward on the shaft. It should be free then.

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    SOLVED!

    Thanks everyone for your generosity and help. It turns out I just needed to try to take that knurled knob off and then it exposed the threads.
    friction-clutch-threads.jpg

    The I realized the simplicity of the clutch mechanism.
    See the action in the video below



    Once again, thank you all so very much.
    I made my first chips today!
    I will start another thread regarding the relief angle on modern carbide Lathe Tool Bits as my tool holders point up too much for these modern cutters.

    THANKS!

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    Excellent!

    I love that lathe, it has beautiful patina IMO. Keep us updated on what you use it for please.


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