Chicago Brake 1948
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  1. #1
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    Talking Chicago Brake 1948

    brake.jpgbrake-name-plate.jpg

    Got involved in the site for an old Southbend 14 1/2 I've been slowly bringing back to life. One of the guys suggested i post on this Thread as I tend to acquire some old stuff. Poor man has poor ways, when have what i like to call a "charity fab Shop" any how though I would share my latest find, 1948 Chicago Mechanical brake! i have the drive gear for it, it's just not installed. I've been buffing on it some trying to get 72 years of paint of it. over all seems to be in good shape a couple of jam bolts i may have to cut out. (i'll post some more pics later of those). big problem i have right now is i don't have 3 phase.... I have done a little research on phase convertors , like everything on the internet there is pretty much an info overload)even got a recommendation from the folks at American Phase convertors. I'm a little skeptical of the recommendation as the helpful young man that gave it sounded 18 years old and i'm not sure he grasped just how old this thig was. I recon my question to all you antique equipment doctors is has anyone run anything this old on a Rotary phase convertor? any pit falls i need to look out for? I'm dieing to get this thing running!

    also i did some research on bending the guide for the drive gear, its a little bent, i did some research on types of metal, is probably forged( if anyone thinks are knows different please let me know) seems like heat would work just don't make it glow,

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    Hey JM,

    Do you have a picture of the motor plate? Or at least the Spec's that you can post here?

    Horsepower
    Voltage
    Amps
    RPM
    Phase = 3 (My assumption from your post)


    Paul

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    data-plate.jpg

    Sorry don't know why i didn't think to post that when asking that kind of question?!?! if any of yall get to know me you'll notice a pattern of me getting ahead of myself, and being a bit scattered.....

    as well as a pattern of poor typing/spelling

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    Hey JM

    No worries.

    So this is basically the same size motor I have on my LeBlond Lathe which is also 3 phase. My shop much like yours does not have 3 phase power and at that only a 100amp 220v service.

    I looked at a lot of the rotary phase converters and ultimately decided on a VFD. At this point I have 5 machines all running on VFD and am very happy I went that way.

    From my experience so far though 5hp is as large as you can go with with a single phase to 3phase conversion without spending some big money. I found a Danfoss VLT2840 that had 1 or 3 phase in and 3 phase out for 5hp and it works great. Here is the complete model number of the unit I purchased - VLT2840PD2. I found mine on ebay and have looked a few times since for a second one without any luck. So I am not sure how much trouble it will be to track one down. I paid $200 for it as NOS.

    Rotary phase converters are simpler on the setup but require a higher HP setup. A VFD rated for 5hp will run 5hp, a 10hp Rotary phase converter will run 5hp. The VFD will also give you all kinds of other control like possibly setting up Presets with defined bend angles.

    Hope this helps at all. And this was just my experience so far running 3phase without 3 phase.

    Paul

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    I have several machines from the 40s and 50s with 5HP motors. The K&T has a GE and the Monarch with a Westinghouse. All started fine on an American Rotary 10HP that I purchased new ~10 years ago. The worst 3ph starts are things like hydraulic iron workers where the motor must start loaded. Not sure how this machine works, is it clutched? If this unit starts unloaded like a clutched lathe you should be fine. The other advantage of an RPC is then other tools can pretty much drop in to the shop without any work. BTW I ran that 10 HP RPC on a 30 amp breaker in a subpanel that was fed by a 60 amp breaker in the main. Not ideal but it worked. I've since moved the shop to a new building on the property with dedicated 3 phase from the utility company.

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    I will definitely agree with Ohio Mike in the case of a RPC other tools will just drop in and be ready to go. With the VFD route I had to wire every machine up with its own dedicated VFD. Overall at this point cost wise I am about even RPC or VFD/Buttons/Boxes. Some stuff just worked perfectly and some stuff need to be completely rewired to accept the VFD. I have a larger 3hp 10 x 70 belt sander that needed to be completely rewired to run on VFD but I was able to add a brake and have a nice controlled stop in 3 seconds versus the normal coast down time.

    If you see yourself having 3 Phase in the future then the RPC is probably a better/easier way to go. I most likely will never have the 3 phase access so there was that consideration for me as well. I was not concerned about have to go backwards at some point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohio Mike View Post
    I have several machines from the 40s and 50s with 5HP motors. The K&T has a GE and the Monarch with a Westinghouse. All started fine on an American Rotary 10HP that I purchased new ~10 years ago. The worst 3ph starts are things like hydraulic iron workers where the motor must start loaded. Not sure how this machine works, is it clutched? If this unit starts unloaded like a clutched lathe you should be fine. The other advantage of an RPC is then other tools can pretty much drop in to the shop without any work. BTW I ran that 10 HP RPC on a 30 amp breaker in a subpanel that was fed by a 60 amp breaker in the main. Not ideal but it worked. I've since moved the shop to a new building on the property with dedicated 3 phase from the utility company.
    thank you both good sirs, Ohio moke brings up a good point, I am actually looking at a Piranha Iron worker that has a 10HP motor on it, and to Pauls point i'll more than likely be acquiring some more 3 phase equipment and would rather just be able to drop them in rather than have to wire up VFD's every time.
    I'm not sure on the drive, i used one once a long time ago and it seemed to be like direct drive, kinda on off, dangerous as all get out kind of operation!! it has a limit switch on it to keep from having train wrecks but to my understanding once you hit on switch its moving till something happens either you turn it off or something crashes!

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    I have a similar brake in box and pan configuration. The motor end of the brake has a adjustable limit switch on the bending pivot. It should do just fine with a rotary phase convertor. Yes, it is a direct drive from the motor to the curved rack that moves the apron. This will not be a problem for a proper rotary phase convertor.

    Wiring in a phase convertor would be a pain given the motor reverses to lower the apron and the stop limit switches. The slower speeds possible with a vfd would be nice, but since you give up power with lower speeds the motor might be undersized.

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    00d2a322-64c0-4c75-b6dc-4dded012a2d6.jpg00d2a322-64c0-4c75-b6dc-4dded012a2d6.jpg so while cleaning up and inspecting found the roller guid that goes over the arched bull gear to be bent along with a broken roller bolt in it, Getting it off was like sand papering a bobcats ass. For giggles I called up mrs. Monna at dries and Krupp to get a cost, brace yourself, 2700$! I was was sure to clarify that I didn’t need the i tier drive assembly! And sure enough that cost was for the part your see here! So this leads me to my question, any of you old iron doctors ever had any luck heating and bending something like this? I’ve been setting here cyphering on a jig to build to hold it if were to even try. I won’t be able to get to crazy with it as my old press is an antique screw type!

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    [ATTACH=CONFIG]31546] I was thinking of a set up like this, drill some holes in a piece of 1/2 inch plate set the whole contraption in press?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 3bfb02a7-b192-4782-9426-00dbc3693db6.jpg  

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    a623afc5-3268-4160-8752-9153bf2b172c.jpga623afc5-3268-4160-8752-9153bf2b172c.jpg

    Don’t have to much faith in my set up.

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    How’d it work out!?

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    well I ended up adding a few giant c clamps, and a small chain binder, finally managed to get it to stand still. Didn't get any feed back on the heating of the part, and as usual with all my internet search's the results indeed up 50/50 on it. SO i Went ahead and gave it a shot, nothing to loose. I did follow the advice of slow heat and not to get it glowing. managed to get it back Eyeball straight before i ran out of time that evening and had to shove off back to work. I would like to have had about 2 more hours to take it out of the jig and put a square on it. next time home ill start trying to get the broken bolt out and see if the bolt holes for them line up. I suspect I may have to do some more tweaking.

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    well ya'll may not believe this (or Care!) but when i got it out of the frackinstien hold down, and put my square on it, she was dang near perfect!, further more the bolt that hold the two rollers in thread into the opposing side and had amazingly managed to get the threaded holes back in line with the opposing entry holes a nd the rollers fit and roll freely! i got my phase convertor all mounted, but not wired up, so no test drive yet. on thing that did puzzeled me when i got it back together was the roller being a little off center of the drive gear/ arch thing. i don't have a reference of what it looked like in its youth, and the gear wasn't installed when i got it. just seems to me like it would have been centered up on the drive. the part that holds those rollers can't go any further to towards the right do to the thickness of the drive gear on the shaft it rides on that drive the arch drive ( don't know why i keep calling it an arch drive)roller-guide.jpg


    i can't figure out how to rotate the pic, but it's looing down the arch, rotate the picture 90 deg in your minds Eye!

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