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The chicken or the egg?

Will.
the demand for square wheels had just about petered out. Sold a few to a fellow called Pythagoras, made a few drills for a bloke called Archimedes and a couple of pillars for a bloke called Solomon.
Then, we promptly forgot it all until a bloke called Professor Thom discovered that even before that, people were using the planet Venus to measure time, length and degrees. Moreover, all they had was bits of string , rope and sticks. The Brits did it- long before anyone else.

Don't believe it? Read it up.

Cheers

Norm
 
The lathe was the first machine tool.
Here's an early exampe of a "Pole Lathe", powered by a foot pedal attached with a rope to a pole, or tree branch.
With a lathe, almost every other machine can be created.
pole_lathe.jpg
 
It would be nice to put the lathe in front but if we go into really ancient history, we were probably putting up pillars or cranes to raise stones or to move stones- on rollers or A Frames or even potters wheels. The last is probably when the first lathe came in.

It seems a bit too close to the Flintstones but Pliny was killed by a Lammergeir dropping a stone on his bald pate! Who trained it?
After all, there is reference to ornamental ----turning!

Isn't history fun?
 
From "English & American Tool Builders" by Joseph Wickham Roe, the text states that the earliest machine tools, those intended for precision machining of metal, and not wood working nor ornamental work, were boring machines. These were required for Watts' steam engine cylinders and the boring of cannons. The first such boring machine is credited to John Wilkinson of England for the boring of cannons. In 1775, he bored the first steam cylinder engine for Boulton & Watt. This machine was typical of its day in that most of the frame was made of oak timbers. Probably the first all-metal machine tool was built by Henry Maudslay of England in 1797. It was a screw-cutting lathe about 3 feet long. The need for scews and nuts in the building of other machines probably prompted Maudslay to build this lathe. Something that I take for granted is the ability to fasten objects together with a screw and nut which can be taken apart without breaking the parts. Before this, I suppose rivets were the principal method to join metal together.

The need for accuracy in these early machines could only be accomplished if straight, flat surfaces existed to check the machine components against. Maudslay did this by the production of surface plates which parts could be compared against for flatness. The surface plates were produced three at a time and rubbed against each other to show high spots which could be rough filed down by hand and then finished to minute precision by hand scraping. Two plates aren't enough as they wouldn't show the ball and socket defect that can slide over each other and show no high spots, yet not be true plane surfaces. Plates number 1 and 2 would be rubbed and scraped together until uniform. Then plate 3 would be worked to conform to plate 1. Now plates 2 and 3 are of the same shape, both are either a ball or a socket and when rubbed together will show their imperfection. These imperfections are scraped down and the process continues for all 3 plates until the ball and socket defect (concave, convex condition) is gone. As far as I know, this process is still used today and hand scraping is still a necessary part of machine tool building.

http://www.pioneers.historians.co.uk/maudslay.html

As for what came first, the lathe or the mill, the chicken or the egg, I would say it didn't matter. What came first was the hammer, chisel, file, and the hand scraper. Men like Maudslay could produce incredibly accurate parts with hand tools, great skill, and clever methods of obtaining accuracy.

As machines quickly grew in size, their own weight could flex their frames outside the tolerances demanded. To build a large lathe doesn't mean you need a surface plate just as large to make sure it is straight. Water in troughs set along a machine bed can be used to check how level the ways are. Straight edges can be used to check straightness of portions of a machine base and then the entire bed can be checked against water levels in troughs. Not until you approach 200-300 feet does the curvature of the earth start curving water levels to .001 inches. Wire stretched very tightly can be used to check straightness over many feet. Up until lasers, I have heard the wire method was used to check straightness of big machines of 100 feet and greater length. Ingersoll Milling in Rockford used wires, according to a guy I met that worked there, to straighten the beds of 100+ foot long mills.

Steve
 
I did some reading concerning early clockmaking many years ago, and seem to remember that clockmakers were using small metal lathes for the precision machining of metal quite quite a bit earlier. Anyone else have a sense of this? Certainly clocks were ornamented, but not all.
Has anyone written a difinitive history of machine tools?
 
I would say the drill, after all when someone uses a rotating stick to create fire the buisness end of the stick no doubt is making a small hole/cavity in the wood it rests on ;)

Norman
But who were these 'Brits', Europe still has survivors of its ancient past, like the Sami,Finns,Basque.
Any reputable refrences? .Ofcourse I could search online but anyone can and does say anthing on the net.
 
I think you need to be more definitive of what a 'machine tool' is. I don't think a pole lathe, or a bow drill rate as a 'machine'.

I wouldn't call a lathe a machine tool until it got to the point where you could flip that clutch lever and it would move the carriage itself. I am sure that opinions very as to when the level of complexity reached the point where the 'tool' became a 'machine'.

Several years ago, I was in the Field museum in Chicago where they have a large display of Egyptian antiquities. They had a display of make-up with little bottles in which the colors were kept. These bottles were made of stone and about three inches tall. They were so symetrical that I thought they had to have been turned on a lathe. There was no comments written on the display as to how the little bottles were manufactured.
 
Spud,
I used the expression Brits to signify the people who were in Great Britain- at the time.

Digressing- well, getting away from the Da Vinci Code and such- I have been dabbling in things before Solomon and Company. Call them the Masonic lot but in Books of Kings and so on. You get old Archemedes and Euclid and Pythagoras and other worthies.

What is worth turning to is The Book of Hiram by Lomas and Knight. True, they are masons and so am I but they give a story earlier than us and recall a Professor Thom who made suggestions that the ancients in GB used the planet Venus for all sorts of measurement. Surprisingly, the accuracy is higher than the huge gap between them and fairly recent measurement. Imagine doing it all with rope, string and the odd stick.
Where Thom and his researches get is to suppose that the ancients took their skills to the Middle East rather than the other way about.
Did Hiram, King of Tyre have the so called 'lost masonic secrets' and he, Solomon and Hiram Abiff be the three guardians?
OK, it doesn't mean that you have to be a Freemason or that you shouldn't be one. This is engineering- crude, perhaps, but informative.

Google up 'Megalithic' and have fun.

Cheers

Norm
 
good morning.

Norman, and others, i am really enjoying reading this. i wish i was smart enough to be able to contribute some answers, but i am old and i am still working on the questions.

Norman, should you be in Texas i wish you would let me know. i would be more than pleased to buy the whiskey. i am sure we could find something to discuss.

thank you all.

peace.
billr
 
Art deco...............an inclined plane, a lever (leever for you Brits) and a wheel are all "machines" per my high school physics book!

Tim in D
 
Tim,
Correction- we use 'lever' pronounced 'leever' from the French- and for which you have "Way down on the levee!" which is a raised river bank. ( I did enjoy that!)
From there on, Tim, you will note that I ducked out in getting to splitting hairs and such.
What your high school physics book contains is what your book contains- and may be right or wrong.If you lived in the days of say Leonardo da Vinci, you might have different ideas but his contraptions are classed as 'machines' then and now. Even his parachute was classed this way.
It doesn't contain a wheel and might or might not have a lever but it had a set of fulcrums- but the modern ones don't but they have springs.
Confused? Join the Club. Simply answer the questions set from the book- and be prepared to change again. You will then have become a politician. And - the Machinery of Politics- and go into machinations. No leg pull, Tim, but it is exactly that- clear as mud.

For dear billr- the man of peace- I would love to go the Alamo. Not to drink whisky or whiskey( what the Hell is the latter) but to see where a Masonic Lodge fought it out to the bitter end. I have been to Boston where the Lodge dressed up as Red Indians- and put the wind up the Brits.

I know, I know but it takes practice to become an idiot!After all, I have bits of paper with engineering, mathematics, languages, economics, politics, law, religion, the sciences, literature, the arts, geography and a load of other useless things. None of them are any use.
My arthritis is still awful, I can't see well enough to read them, I can't hear, I have low blood pressure and blood in my urine- and my wife says that I - smell.
So Bill, address please if you want a heap of useless paper posted.Heaven alone must know what else there is to do with it! Oh, yes------a shredder is a machine!I forgot.

Err, cheers

Norm
 








 
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