Cincinnati Lathe and Tool Lathe

I found this lathe for sale and I am considering buying it. It was Ran 3 years ago, the guy cut the power out of the building, so i couldnt see it run. It has 3 phase motor with some type of rigged converter..couldnt figure it out. Has like 5 chucks, 3 and 4 jaw. Swing is around 16" and the bed is about 6'

First question is should i get it? This is one lathe that i cant find much info about on here. I have found one thread with an identical looking lathe, but not much info. Are they decent? Iam fairly new to this, own an old Hendy lathe but its not in running order. THis also has a steady rest and an attachement off the back that looks like its used for cutting complex shapes and tapers. Not sure on what this is called, but I gather how it works, i assume you make a jig for it to follow.

The spindle felt solid as did the cross feed. Anybody PM me a ballpark value?
Thanks.

Based on what little there is to see, and the promise of a taper atachment (thing on the back) and all the accessories, I'd buy it. As for price, that's up to you. I'd try my best to get it for <$1000 in this economy but that'd darn near be theft. I've seen a couple of lathes of that vintage lately for much less but they didn't have the chucks, steady, or taper attachment.

I down loaded the picture and enlarged it, It does have a taper attachment but what I was looking at was the round bar on the shelfs.

If you buy the lathe try and get the steel cheap or better yet get him to through it in the deal.

Paul

Its another old timey gear head with a threaded spindle nose and very likely plain spindle bearings. How is it worth $1K?

J.O.

Another poster found this lathe on Craigslist, passed due to limited max spindle rpm- one of his pics was of the placard which suggested approx 400rpm max. OTOH it looks sort of like an antifriction setup but thats a low max.. but I'd guess bronze, just with some kind of oil system. Looks as if the top half comes off to expose the works inside.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/harrisburg-pa-cinci-lathe-226960/

Not seeing a thread dial either.


Regards,

Greg

Greg Menke said:

Another poster found this lathe on Craigslist, passed due to limited max spindle rpm- one of his pics was of the placard which suggested approx 400rpm max. OTOH it looks sort of like an antifriction setup but thats a low max.. but I'd guess bronze, just with some kind of oil system. Looks as if the top half comes off to expose the works inside.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/harrisburg-pa-cinci-lathe-226960/

Not seeing a thread dial either.


Regards,

Greg

Click to expand...

Greg, you are pretty much correct. I have an older version of this lathe but of the 4-step cone pulley variety. In almost all respects, my lathe is identical. The QC box, apron, saddle, legs, compound, etc., only show minor differences, such as this lathe using lobed clutch knobs (mine are knurled), and a different style of saddle crank wheel.

On these old Cincinnati's, the thread dial is integral within the top of the saddle on the righthand side, and is flush with the saddle surface. A rather neat installation I always thought.

Regarding the spindle bearing type, I would strongly lean toward it being an internally lubricated bronze. The other Cincy lathes of this era that I know about, all have bronze spindle bearings. I will note this: this is the only Cincinnati Lathe and Tool gear head I have EVER seen, except for the ad engravings to be found in Ken Cope's lathe book. The other extant models are either 16 or 18 inch swing, and sport three or four step cone pulleys, with the three step versions having double back gear.

Lastly, the only fault we have ever had with this lathe, and it has been "in the family" for a half century or so, is that the headstock tumbler and feed gearing is of a very poor quality cast, and have shed numerous teeth over the decades. The QC gearing, along with the apron gears do not seem to suffer the same malady. The other owners I have communicated with, report similar defects. Since this machine appears to be a newer model, it may not suffer from the same issue. However, it would be prudent to remove the end cover and closely examine the gear train for faults. Not a deal killer since the rest of the lathe is very overbuilt and rigid. A quality machine indeed.

J.D.

In fairness the tumbler gears seem to take a beating on many lathes- my 1912 ATW has a lot of wear and rattle up there too, I think its mostly about the mileage. My 1936 ATW went through at least 1 set of gears in the train to the gearbox- the old set was wired together and stashed in the tailstock cabinet.

That looks like a early 20's sort of design- but the integral thread dial is a nice touch, ATW didn't start doing that till the 30's.

As "busy" as the headstock looks I find it kind of appealing. Unless the PO beat it to death it looks like it would clean up well.

Greg

If I were taller (or stood on a box) I could have gotten the thread dial into the pic of the taper attachment I posted in the other thread, but it does have one built into the saddle on the right side.

Rich

Greg Menke said:

In fairness the tumbler gears seem to take a beating on many lathes- my 1912 ATW has a lot of wear and rattle up there too, I think its mostly about the mileage. My 1936 ATW went through at least 1 set of gears in the train to the gearbox- the old set was wired together and stashed in the tailstock cabinet.

That looks like a early 20's sort of design- but the integral thread dial is a nice touch, ATW didn't start doing that till the 30's.

As "busy" as the headstock looks I find it kind of appealing. Unless the PO beat it to death it looks like it would clean up well.

Greg

Click to expand...

Good point Greg regarding the abuse heaped upon these machines during their working life, and the ensuing wear and damage wrought. I suppose it could be argued that the reason so many of the "light duty" lathes of the era have comparably little damage to tumbler gearing, is that the operators of the day were well aware of the fragility, and thus were at pains to prevent accidents and overloads.

In contrast, the poor ATW's, Cincinnati's, et al, were considered workhorses, and placed in environments and duties that exacted a heavy toll over time. Case in point: Of my four lathes, only the Cincy exhibits evidence of spending time in a heavy industrial setting. In addition to the scars in the ways, and wear throughout the machine, there is still the remnants of the number "22" stenciled on the end of the bed, suggesting it was but one of some unknown number of similar machines in a large facility, cranking out thousands of parts in decades of rough service.

Only by chance it ended up with me, and has survived to this day.

I've attached a couple of recent photos of the old girl. Note the different style of hand wheel, clutch knobs, and QC levers. The feed rod direction knob is also of a different style from the subject lathe.






J.D.

Good looking arbors on the bench J.D.

J.O.

johnoder said:

Good looking arbors on the bench J.D.

J.O.

Click to expand...

Thanks John! Those are some of the arbors I made in the South Bend for the Kempsmith Number 1 Plain. The one on the left is an 1 1/4", the two middle ones are 1", and the right one is a 7/8". Still need to mill the flats and key, but in all other respects, they are done. Been trying to find the time to finish up the nuts and collars, but work has definitely circumscribed my activities at the shop (got the nuts finish turned, just need to put in the appropriate left-hand thread, then mill the wrench flats).

The large diameter billets sitting next to the arbors are 4140 annealed stock for making B&S collets and toolholders for my mills. You can see a couple of my old dead ones sitting between the billets and the arbors.

J.D.

By the way, I strongly concur with Mr. Oder vis a' vis: sale price. Inspite of the apparent rarity of this machine, it is in no way worth much north of $500. Scrap-plus if in good working order.

IF the tumbler and feed gearing is intact and in reasonable shape, AND the ways are not ridged, AND the half-nuts engage properly, AND the spindle is within it's adjustment range, AND the gearhead and spindle bearings are in decent shape, THEN it may be worth $750 or so. That of course is if you factor in "owner satisfaction", a term that is used in other collector circles denoting the intangible value one places on particular makes, models, or types of products. Simply put, owner satisfaction is the unique value one may assign this Cincy lathe because he once ran, owned, admired, or has some "feeling" for the machine such that it holds a more intimate place in his heart than comparable lathes.

Such is my feelings for this lathe. If all of the requisites delineated above were met, and I was in a position to invest in another lathe, I MIGHT spring $750-$850 for it. The deciding factor, all other things equal, is the fact that I have very fond memories of owning and operating a very similar machine from the same company.

Nickels worth of old iron sophistry to cogitate on.

J.D.

I am into your chip tray JD!

in fact you just gave me an idea... Amongst the practical problems at Tuckahoe, we've been slogging along using baking trays to catch chips, oil drips etc. They are too short, too narrow, too light and too shallow- inadequate in every possible respect. But I am going to knock together a bunch of boxes kinda like yours with CASTERS so we can move the things around without bending over to pick them up only to strike something nearby with body and/or tray, sending the oily chips all over creation. A really happening idea would be to make carts w/ matching boxes, so the full box can be wheeled over to the trashcan.

I just KNOW Jeff_G will give me that promotion for this one...

Regards,

Greg

Greg Menke said:

I am into your chip tray JD!

in fact you just gave me an idea... Amongst the practical problems at Tuckahoe, we've been slogging along using baking trays to catch chips, oil drips etc. They are too short, too narrow, too light and too shallow- inadequate in every possible respect. But I am going to knock together a bunch of boxes kinda like yours with CASTERS so we can move the things around without bending over to pick them up only to strike something nearby with body and/or tray, sending the oily chips all over creation. A really happening idea would be to make carts w/ matching boxes, so the full box can be wheeled over to the trashcan.

I just KNOW Jeff_G will give me that promotion for this one...

Regards,

Greg

Click to expand...

Greg, that old box is a WWII vintage ammunition container, and dates to the very earliest period of my family shop (1946-50) when the "Shop" was located in my grandfather's and his partner's basements. Other than it not having wheels, it always seemed the perfect size. Under the South Bend, we used a large galvanized wash tub that finally had to be pitched after it split it's seams.

Used to be a plethora of ancient machine shops around here when I was a kid, and about all of them had wooden boxes for chip tubs under the lathes, so in reality, using a wood box for such purposes at a museum may very well be "historically correct".

Another item that I just don't see anymore is the old wooden "machine mats" that sat on the floor in front of every lathe and mill. Consisting of one-by-two or one-by-three pine, these "mats" were about 24" wide, and tailored in length to accomodate the working path in front of the given machine. The slats were separated with about an inch and one half space between them, and had ample cross members screwed or nailed underneath to prevent excessive flexing. The spacing allowed chips, oil, and other detritus to drop through, and the wood helped to relieve the operator of standing many hours on concrete.

Like my old chip box, after numerous years of exposure to oil and coolant, the wood not only was preserved, but developed a pleasing patina that matched the machines. Also, like the modern mats, the wooden ones provided some measure of protection from slipping and electrical shock.

I've always want to make some for the shop. May yet one day. If nothing else, I think they just look cool, and fit in well with the old machines.

One disclaimer though: after a number of years use, the old wooden chip tubs have a nasty habit of getting damned heavy from soaking up oil. You will never throw one away because it rots, but because it becomes too unwieldy to lift and empty.

J.D.

Get the top of the container nearer the bottom of the bed for more effective chip catching.

I have a big old plastic bowl - must be a 10 gallon job. I sit it on
three one pound empty coffee cans and it just clears the bottom of the bed casting on the 1917 24" L&S Selective Head.

Cheap and effective, does not weigh a ton empty.

Wood ammo boxes are cool - I inherited one from dad (1908-1979) that used to be full of 20mm rounds. They must of made these boxes in huge numbers, but it is very nicely built.

J.O.

Curious the similarity between the Cincinnati and Leblond even back then. This one is coming up at auction and I am thinking I might be able to pick it up for under 2 bills. Earl.

johnoder said:

Wood ammo boxes are cool - I inherited one from dad (1908-1979) that used to be full of 20mm rounds. They must of made these boxes in huge numbers, but it is very nicely built.

J.O.

Click to expand...

Ammo boxes around here in Southern Indiana were at one time ubiquitous. With the Jefferson Proving Ground to the south east, and NAD Crane (Naval Amunition Depot) in the south central part of the state, there seemed to never be a shortage of ammo crates of all sizes, shapes, and materials. The wooden ones were the most plentiful, and least expensive to buy. I recall more than one neighbor in the 60's and 70's who built garages, sheds, workshops, and even houses out of them. Most of the boys I grew up with had an ammo box in their bedroom for use as a footlocker.

With the end of the Vietnam War in 1975, the supply of boxes pretty well dried up. Too, it seems the military cut back drastically on the use of wood, and opted more for steel and aluminum. I know of only a couple of places where they sell these containers, and the majority are of metal construction. The price ain't cheap either.

J.D.

Thread bump

These must be some of the most obscure lathes built, it is hard to find any information at all. I posted this call out for information in the USA Heavy Iron forum without realizing this is the better place to post. Any information at all is appreciated, but for starters I'd like to find out what tapers are in the spindle and tailstock.

The lathe was originally in a textile mill's machine shop in South Carolina, and was purchased by a retired employee when the mill shut down. He subsequently passed away and his son sold it to me. It appears to have been kept outdoors for a while, the ways and screws on the cross and compound are seized but everything else moves. The ways seem fairly good (no ridge detected under the rust), but the expected dings are present near the head. Carriage operates nicely and has a built in thread dial. The usual broken off handles here and there. It has an overhead drive with a transmission that has two shift levers. Well chucked but practically no tooling. I think it can be brought back to life.

http://i62.tinypic.com/30rxrpx.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/5ydoom.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/11b3clj.jpg

I just bought this exact lathe 2 weeks ago. I've been trying to find info on it when I stumbled onto this thread.

It's now sitting in my shop hooked up to my 30 HP RPC. I've searched everywhere the last to weeks and can't find anything out about it. Serial number on the bed is 3053. I understand what the function of most of the levers are but I don't get the hand wheels on the carriage. How do they engage/function? They spin when the shaft is engaged and the lever on the carriage isn't in neutral but I can't get either feed to engage. Any help would be appreciated.

chubbyjp77 said:

I just bought this exact lathe 2 weeks ago. I've been trying to find info on it when I stumbled onto this thread.

It's now sitting in my shop hooked up to my 30 HP RPC. I've searched everywhere the last to weeks and can't find anything out about it. Serial number on the bed is 3053. I understand what the function of most of the levers are but I don't get the hand wheels on the carriage. How do they engage/function? They spin when the shaft is engaged and the lever on the carriage isn't in neutral but I can't get either feed to engage. Any help would be appreciated.

Click to expand...

Never seen this lathe, but two other things to look for (beside those feed clutches being simply out of adjustment // plumb wore-out..)

A) FWD-REV (optionally neutral) pull-knob or swing-crank on the apron to control surfacing use.

B) Stuck / failed/ just not properly actuated mechanical interlock that prevent use of leadscrew & half-nuts at the same time as power surfacing (or the reverse..).

Bill