What's new
What's new

Cutting a 7 ft diameter screw thread with an 18" lathe

Asquith

Diamond
Joined
Mar 3, 2005
Location
Somerset, UK
W Philips lathe.jpg
OK, I'm guessing at the sizes, but you get the idea.

I assume that the winding/haulage drum had suffered some distress, and that it was necessary to recut or skim the thread. Who would have thought to do it like this? You would? Of course.

In case it's not clear what's going on, the drum is being driven by a belt round its brake surface, presumably by a portable or traction engine. The drum then drives the lathe spindle via a chain, and the lathe spindle is driving the leadscrew in the usual way. The cross slide has been repositioned

The lathe has been bolted to something, and weighted down with weights and scrap firebars, rails, etc.

The column on the right? Don’t know, possibly the brake, or clutch.

You’d need to concentrate! Once you start cutting……….

The location is probably the Simmer and Jack East gold mine in South Africa, probably in 1904-1912. The photo and the following information were provided by Mr Philip Meidlinger. The imposing man on the left of the lathe was William Philips, his great grandfather.

William Philips was probably the brains behind the lathe set up. He was foreman of the turners, and later resident engineer at the gold mine. He qualified as an engineer in 1916. He had served his apprenticeship in the 1890s at the shipyard of Hall, Russell & Co in Aberdeen. He patented a safety device for reversible mine winding/haulage machines (US patent No. 999520).
 
Asquith:

Thank you for posting this photo. It is very thought provoking.

After some study, my thoughts are:

1. The winder drum is being re-cut in situ.

2. The tank and piping to the right of the photo are likely part of the braking system for the winder. What may be a 'runaway' or emergency braking mechanism appears in the lower RH corner of the photo.

3. The 'skeletonized' disc or dial in the upper center of the picture may well have been part of the 'cage position indicator' mechanism.

4. The lathe in the photo is being driven by the roller chain from the winder's main shaft. The sprocket wheel that the roller chain is running on may well have normally been used to drive the cage position indicator or the runaway governor to throw on the emergency braking.

5. The winder is probably being turned using a jacking or barring engine. In the era of this photo, with forged high carbon steel tools and a cast iron drum, a very slow turning speed was all that was needed. A jacking or barring engine could be reversed to run the threading tool back to the start without having to disengage the half nuts.

6. The winding drum was likely cast in sections and assembled at the 'works for turning and chasing the hoisting rope grooves. Once this was done, the drum was broekn down into sections for shipment from Scotland to South Africa and transport to the mine. The winding drum was assembled using fitted studbolts, and the shanks of those studs were likely heated to a 'black heat' before setting the studs and running down the nuts. On cooling, the studs contracted and locked the winding drum together in a 'death grip'. No engineer in his right mind was going to want to take that apart if he could avoid it.

7. Turning the drum to re-chase the hoist rope grooves in situ made perfect sense. Never mind 'where' could those engineers have send the drum and mainshaft for remachining, but 'how'. Sending the drum and its shaft off site for remachining was not an option, and I doubt those engineers considered it for more than a few brief moments.

8. The lathe was setup so its bed was parallel to the centerline of the winding drum. In an era when there were no handy pneumatic or electric masonry drills, there was no setting temporary anchor bolts to hold the lathe. In an era when there was no welding to fabricate a temporary structural framework to hold the lathe solidly in place by bolting off parts of the winder, the only option was to 'ballast' the lathe. In the USA we call firebars 'grate bars'. It is obvious the engineers had the laboring gang throw anything handy and heavy on the temporary mounting for that lathe.

9. The lathe was used in a manner similar to the way large steam engine flywheels were machined at engine builders' shops. It was common practice to mount a flywheel on its crankshaft and support it on temporary pedestal bearings. These were bolted to platens in the shop floor, and there was a pit for the wheel to run down into.
A lathe bed was setup parallel to the centerline of the wheel and the carriage was fed along it to turn the outer diameter of the flywheel. The difference is that the carriage was fed using anything handy to drive the feeds. In this photo, an exact gear ratio had to be established between the winding drum and the lathe lead screw to re cut the helical rope groove. Imagine those engineers doing the math on paper without benefit of handy pocket calculators.

These engineers were brilliant and exemplified the Victorian engineers. They also exemplify something I learned years ago on overseas jobs: "Work with what you have at hand... don't bitch about what you had back in the 'States..." This distills down to: "Play the hand you are dealt". It is a lesson that serves me well not just in engineering and machine shop work but in all other aspects of my life when I am confronted with difficult or challenging situations.

If we think of the times those engineers lived and worked in, the enormity of their work is even more striking. No phones, let along cell phones to call for advice or to order stuff for the job. No handy power tools like electric drills and angle grinders or magnetic based drill presses. No cutting outfits and welding to put together a temporary framework to hold the lathe in place relative to the winder drum. No nice lightweight comealongs and chainfalls, no powered lifting equipment like forklifts or skid-steer loaders... just get a gang of local people and have them take a wood poles and rope slings and manhandle the lathe from the mine machine shop to the winder. Have the same gang lug in all the junk from the boneyard possible to ballast the lathe. No indexable carbide tools, nor any high speed tools. Have the works blacksmith forge some threading tools, harden and temper them and freehand grind to correct profile. Get the lathe setup and start the barring or jacking engine. Play with the gearing, maybe jumping some teeth to help get the tool to where it could pick up the lead of the rope groove in the drum. Once the half nuts were engaged, they stayed engaged until the groove was re-chased to proper depth.

I doubt the drum suffered a mishap. South African gold mines are quite deep. Normal wear on the drum from running cages up and down the shaft probably wore the grooves and the ridges between them until the hoist rope did not lay right on the drum. Imagine the job of unspooling a few thousand feet of heavy wire hoisting rope. Those engineers exemplified so much, and words like imagination, fortitude, perseverance, and brilliance all come to mind.
 
Funny thing, I know where there's a lathe very similar to that one, certainly the same vintage, not far from me. I got offered it for free but as the only use I had was as another mooring block, I passed. Far as I know it's still in the shed though.

PDW
 
Oh wow the lathe continues behind the gent standing on the right, I was so confused at first. This is a seriously cool and thought provoking picture. They seem proud of the work there doing.
 
Pffft. I do this all the time. But I use 165.98% pure non organic rubber/not rubber bands, driven by the energizer bunny, dancing the two step in time with the road runner.

Anyway, that's just another post showing the ingenuity of people back in the day. It's so cool to see the "outside the box" thinking.
Sucks that todays solution would be to ask alexa to google an amazon listing to buy a new, cheaper made in china product. Regardless if it works or not. Accounting doesn't have to source it ,acquisitions doesn't have to actually install it, and the installers, don't have to use it, and, well, at this point, no one even hears the actual operators. Poor dude just gets fired when that shit don't work.
 
Asquith,
Thanks for sharing a great picture.
I see the maker's name is on the lathe but I can't quite make it out Lee and Huet? from Notting___, or Kotting____?
The carriage looks a bit like the lathe in my Wallace Foundry picture except that the lead screw is on the front of this one .
I thought I had remembered the name Hall and Russell from another thread.
I looked it up and it was this one .
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...1-a-208878/index2.html?highlight=Hall+Russell
With pictures from Hall and Russell here
Aberdeen, York Place, Hall Russell Shipyard | Canmore
There was a thread from last year showing a pit lathe for machining large flywheels along the lines of that mentioned by Joe Michaels.
I'm guessing that the gears and winding drums shown in the Hall and Russell link may have been held together in much the same manner as described by Joe M. so perhaps it was not the first time Mr. Philips had used or seen a similar setup.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...athe-376703/?highlight=Machining+Flywheel+Pit
link from the thread.
International Library of Technology : International Textbook Company : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Regards,
Jim
 
It makes you think how easy we have it now , accuracy aside, just makes one have a special respect. They did so much with so little.
 
We could still do a lot with a little today, but for the fact that nobody wants to pay for it. It's not an efficient way of working. I am sure many of us still do similar things when we're working on personal projects where the time is a little less expensive. Still pretty damn cool though.
 
In 2018, I went to the Quincy Mine in Hancock, Michigan. They have quite an impressive hoist, which, on first sight, would not lend itself to on-site turning of the drum. Built in 1918, it was shut down in 1929. Probably not enough use to need much repair, and certainly did not look very beat up after 100 years.

Attractions | Quincy Mine

Google Maps

Quincy Mine - Wikipedia

DSC01657.jpg Drum
DSC01662.jpg Drum and operator station with position indicator
DSC01663.jpg DSC01664.jpg Governor
DSC01661.jpg Auxiliary engine

Larry
 
We had to turn the brake drums on a drilling rig cable drum. I know they were bigger than 5' as we had two 60" lathes. We mounted it on pillow blocks c camped to saw horses on the shop floor and used a Lucas boring mill as a lathe carriage. Took the gear reducer motor off the cylindrical grinder and used a immense v belt around the drum and driven by the grinder motor to rotate the drum. Fun times you gotta run what you brung
 
Asquith - I have just spent half an hour examining your photograph. Coupled with Joe Michaels' contribution,it is a pretty inspiring start to the day. Thank you.

-Marty-
 








 
Back
Top