Do modern Starrett Calipers share Charles Fay Springfield 1885 Patent ?

SalemRule · Jan 8, 2019

Do modern Starrett Calipers share Charles Fay Springfield 1885 or 1886 Patents ?

Do modern Starrett Calipers share Charles Fay Springfield 1885 or 1886 Patents ?

The Quick-Adjust on these Calipers just seems to be very complex, and not terribly easy to use.

I'm not sure if Stevens or Starrett continued their use, and for how long.

US319215A - Spring-calipers - Google Patents

US Patent: 334,764 - Rapidly Adjusting Nut for Calipers and Dividers

79B-4 “Yankee” Spring-Type Caliper, Outside, 4" Size and Capacity, Quick-Spring Nut, Flat Leg

DMF_TomB · Jan 9, 2019

patents are only for 15 years, sometimes a few years more if extended but in general they expired and many companies are free to use old patent ideals, not necessarily make a exact copy as they may have other ideals on what is better
.
spring caliper is fine for wood working and low precision work (1/64"). long ago a big micrometer could easily be 10x the price of a spring caliper. a machinist personal tool box from his apprenticeship might include dividers and inside and outside spring calipers. other than measure shaft diameter and pulley size to 1/64" thats about all i used outside spring caliper for.
.
actually i got a bigger outside spring caliper i heated and forged to a bowling pin shape to measure up to 12" pulley sizes. easier to carry around if bowling pin shape

SalemRule · Jan 9, 2019

Even rarer than I thought !

When I first began playing with this last week, I was surprised at how non-intuitive the Quick-Adjust is. I even thought it could be broken !

But it matches the Patent.

Squeezing the Knurled Ring does NOT release the Nut - it clamps it down.

Releasing the nut requires you to squeeze the caliper arms so as to release tension, then grasp the nut close to the arms.

If this is confusing, look at the Patent. The threads are cut under the Knurled Ring.

My next post will be of a Fay and a Starrett, with a much improved Quick-Adjust Nut. A nut that RELEASES when the Knurled Ring is squeezed.

Those of you interested in this, please check any C Fay you may own for Patent No.334,764 Jan.26, 1886

DMF_TomB · Jan 9, 2019

all mine are just simple nut and thread no quick release. not like i adjust it 100 times a day. more likely adjust once a decade as i dont use spring caliper all that much
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measuring a fan shaft and pulley cause of guard around it, the bowling pin shape spring caliper reaches in the tight clearance around item being measured. if i had alot of clearance i would try to use a digital caliper.
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they do sell spring calipers with a digital readout that you can set the zero on. often they have trouble repeating to .001", again if just measuring to +/-.010" it is good enough for many things. better ones will sometimes repeat to +/-.002"
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snap gage type bore and groove indicators are often very expensive. with squeeze of handle the arms come together to get into a bore and when released they expand to measure a groove in a bore

apolune · Jan 9, 2019

Here's my 6 inch Fay calipers marked like the OP's.

This Fay caliper is marked with the June 2, 1885 patent date and "Yankee" only. These were made by Fay prior to Starrett buying Fay's patent. Per Cope: 'These were cheaper to produce and were meant to compete with the cheap German imports." The nut and how the screw attaches to the legs are pretty crude.

Here's an earlier Fay patent 5 inch caliper marked only "Pat. Dec 20, 1881."

rivett608 · Jan 9, 2019

I have those 3 also but you have better photos.

SalemRule · Jan 9, 2019

apolune said:
Here's my 6 inch Fay calipers marked like the OP's.

View attachment 246502

This Fay caliper is marked with the June 2, 1885 patent date and "Yankee" only. These were made by Fay prior to Starrett buying Fay's patent. Per Cope: 'These were cheaper to produce and were meant to compete with the cheap German imports." The nut and how the screw attaches to the legs are pretty crude.

View attachment 246503

Here's an earlier Fay patent 5 inch caliper marked only "Pat. Dec 20, 1881."

View attachment 246501

Beautiful Examples !

I never had any of these but the first.

Do the others say "Fay" at all ?

And I'm sure all agree that the Quick-Adjust per the Patent is a pretty bad design. Not easy to use at all.

Yet it was quickly "turned-inside-out", and with the addition of a "C" Spring became the famous Starrett Quick-Adjust that has been manufactured in the tens (or hundreds) of thousands.

Do you use a Light Tent ?

I've just been using a white board, and my lighting is highly dependent on the Sun.

SalemRule · Jan 9, 2019

I have been acting on the assumption that Calipers made with Quick-Adjust Nuts as the Patent are the earliest, as it is just so awful.

Here are some pics of two early Calipers, 6" Fay and 5" Starrett.

Both are stamped with the June 2, 1885 Patent - but no others.

Both have the later Quick-Adjust - the one that works. But at least to my eyes, is very different from the Patent. And I cannot find any Patent that illustrates this improved Quick-Adjust that incorporates a C-Spring inside the outer recess.

Now keep in mind that of these two Calipers, the Starrett has a nice ball at the end, the Fay does not - and seems to never had.

The Body of the Fay is Nickel-Plated. I've not seen that before.

Also it is marked "Mfg By Charles P. Fay" "Springfield, Mass. U.S.A." The entire imprint is very light - "Springfield" especially so. It may not even say "Springfield", but the space devoted to whatever it says is certainly appropriate for "Springfield", so that is very likely.

Has anyone else observed this long imprint, or the nickelling ?

SalemRule · Jan 9, 2019

From Ken Cope's wonderful book:

rivett608 · Jan 9, 2019

These are pretty cool, note the third one in from the left. The fulcrum or pivot point is below the spring causing the screw to not need a quick adjust.

SalemRule · Jan 10, 2019

rivett608 said:
These are pretty cool, note the third one in from the left. The fulcrum or pivot point is below the spring causing the screw to not need a quick adjust.

Astute observation.

The little nut that would typically be the Adjustment Nut, in this case is a Lock Nut. Which due to the strength of the spring, is entirely unnecessary.

The Knurled Disc at the outermost end is not mere decoration, as is usual, but is in fact the adjustment.

It has no Patent that I am aware of.

SalemRule · Jan 10, 2019

Yes, it's true these have no Quick-Adjust.

But they are remarkably rigid, and give the user a very secure experience.

It's a shame their manufacture was not continued.

SalemRule · Jan 18, 2019

From Starrett Catalog No.17

SalemRule · Jan 19, 2019

From Catalog No.21

Was the No.78 dropped and the No.74 introduced ?

fciron · Jan 19, 2019

I wonder how long I've had these calipers without realizing they had a quick- adjust feature.

SalemRule · Jan 19, 2019

fciron said:
I wonder how long I've had these calipers without realizing they had a quick- adjust feature.

Well, the 74's do. The 78's do not.

Which do you have ?

I actually prefer the 78's because they are so rigid.

But I am a professional Engineer, and Inspector.

But not a Machinist. Which I believe is a more difficult profession. Lathes and Milling Machines lack ERASERS.

fciron · Jan 20, 2019

The 74 and 75. They were in the desk drawer of calipers and I don't think I used them ever, but the quick adjust could change that. I'll post a picture when I'm on a real computer.

fciron · Jan 20, 2019

Well, this is frustrating. I was sure I took a picture of the inside calipers as well. They have a different profile than these, square like the catolog picture rather than flat.

I'd take a pair of dividers with that locking mechanism in a second. I think the rigidity would really pay off there.

SalemRule · Jan 21, 2019

fciron said:
Well, this is frustrating. I was sure I took a picture of the inside calipers as well. They have a different profile than these, square like the catolog picture rather than flat.

I'd take a pair of dividers with that locking mechanism in a second. I think the rigidity would really pay off there.

View attachment 247440 View attachment 247441 View attachment 247442

Those appear to be typical Fay-Pattern YANKEE Outside Calipers, with the Quick-Adjust.

Pretty much unchanged for over a Century.

Much like the 1911 Handgun invented by Browning M1911 pistol - Wikipedia

Sometimes when you got it right, you got it right.

Do modern Starrett Calipers share Charles Fay Springfield 1885 Patent ?

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