Educate me please. Kwik way VL valve resurfacer and FN boring bar - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holicori View Post
    That is something I've heard of. My outboard valves are very, very small at the stems.

    How did you go about swapping the check to the collet? How much did that cost roughly?

    Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk
    I made a new shaft with the collet chuck. I used a standard factory collet and nut. You used to be able to be able to buy the parts to convert it. Goodson may have the parts.

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    You mention dingleberry and Lisle hones. Those are not engine hones, they are glaze breakers.

    A proper hone is a Sunnen, such as the CV 616 or the CK10. The hone nearly makes your boring bar obsolete. For just .020 over, its quicker to put it in the hone and remove all the material there. To get rid of the damaged material from the wall of a machined bore, you will need to remove a minimum of .003 if you used sharp cutters, more if the cutter was dull.

    The Sunnen hone will make a cylinder straight and on size to a couple of tenths, within the limits of the operators ability and concern.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    You mention dingleberry and Lisle hones. Those are not engine hones, they are glaze breakers.

    A proper hone is a Sunnen, such as the CV 616 or the CK10. The hone nearly makes your boring bar obsolete. For just .020 over, its quicker to put it in the hone and remove all the material there. To get rid of the damaged material from the wall of a machined bore, you will need to remove a minimum of .003 if you used sharp cutters, more if the cutter was dull.

    The Sunnen hone will make a cylinder straight and on size to a couple of tenths, within the limits of the operators ability and concern.

    gbent is absolutely correct.. Nothing will make a straighter, rounder hole than honing. BUT, it is at least as much art as science. The folks at Sunnen are great, probably the best manufacturer support there is. For the technique find someone who is very good and who is able to explain, without a bunch of black magic bullshit, what and why he does what he does. Then practice.

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    Im no expert,and have ony watched experts ....and wasted their time ,too....Anyhoo,one of the secrets of accurate boring is cutter sharpening.....my machine has a bronze disc,the cutter is held in a sharpening holder ,and sharpened to two angles (holder dtermines angles).....if you dont have the holder ,you will need to copy one..or buy it......sharpening freehand is a shortcut to chatter ........Your portable boring machine can not withstand side force like Mr G Bents avatar unit can ,and cannot tolerate any wear on the cutter which causes side force...excessively fast feed isnt good on a portable bar either ,it leaves a fine thread instead of a nice surface........IMHO ,honing is a sure way to get cockeyed ,out of round bores......flame me if you will...but IMHO ,honing 002 is max,001 better.Just enough to make a nice cross hatch.......Lots of cars etc have cylinders with strange patterns of finish ,which you can never hope to match ..so just stick to a crosshatch ,with a few deeper scratches to hold oil.....No mirror finishes.

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    Your honing instructor list is already narrowed down a bit.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holicori View Post
    Storm Vulcan 85 Head Resurfacer | Jamison Equipment

    What are your thoughts on this? I know a lot of the old cast iron heads AND blocks get put through these guys. Would this type of machine be able to get an MLS finish on aluminum heads?


    While we're at it, what does determine if a resurface is worthy of MLS gaskets? I thought it all you needed with a lower RA finish. And isn't the RA determined by the speed at which the cutter spins? That's what I've gathered in my previous reading...so correct me if I'm wrong.
    That is a good price for a 85B and Jamison is a reputable dealer. The 85B can produce RA down to about 60 in original configuration as this one is. I have one like it and can do 20 RA with proper modifications. Most aftermarket MLS gaskets require 20-30 RA. If you decide to go this way I would be happy to discuss the modifications necessary to achieve modern surface finishes. [email protected]

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    Im no expert,and have ony watched experts ....and wasted their time ,too....Anyhoo,one of the secrets of accurate boring is cutter sharpening.....my machine has a bronze disc,the cutter is held in a sharpening holder ,and sharpened to two angles (holder dtermines angles).....if you dont have the holder ,you will need to copy one..or buy it......sharpening freehand is a shortcut to chatter ........Your portable boring machine can not withstand side force like Mr G Bents avatar unit can ,and cannot tolerate any wear on the cutter which causes side force...excessively fast feed isnt good on a portable bar either ,it leaves a fine thread instead of a nice surface........IMHO ,honing is a sure way to get cockeyed ,out of round bores......flame me if you will...but IMHO ,honing 002 is max,001 better.Just enough to make a nice cross hatch.......Lots of cars etc have cylinders with strange patterns of finish ,which you can never hope to match ..so just stick to a crosshatch ,with a few deeper scratches to hold oil.....No mirror finishes.
    A Sunnen hone will make a round straight hole even with a marginal operator. As a matter of fact it will take a out of round bored hole and make it round.

    As to how much to hone after boring there should be .003" - .005" on diameter. The reason is cast iron is brittle and when bored it leaves micro fractures in the surface. The hone is used to remove these surface cracks and getting back to base metal.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxk View Post
    That is a good price for a 85B and Jamison is a reputable dealer. The 85B can produce RA down to about 60 in original configuration as this one is. I have one like it and can do 20 RA with proper modifications. Most aftermarket MLS gaskets require 20-30 RA. If you decide to go this way I would be happy to discuss the modifications necessary to achieve modern surface finishes. [email protected]
    I would be interested in knowing what you did to get that finish. I've never run an SV, what type of cutters are on that unit at Jamison? My WVN used segmented wheel for cast iron, and a fly cutting attachment for aluminum run at slower spindle speed. Can the SV do cast and aluminum with same cutters?

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    Just starting out you can use hand driven hones and do just as accurate work as a honing machine just a lot slower and not able to replace your bbar.Ammco,Sunnen and Lisle even makes an adjustable hone(not as hd as Ammco or Sunnen).Ck10 Sunnens hold a pretty good resale value although they have been replaced by newer models years ago.
    You can probably find some home built hone fixtures with catch tanks on line to give an idea how to build one,not really hard.

    Hones are probably the most accurate hole makers however they will not correct a centerline.Normal rebuilding that is not a concern.

    Valve guides can be measured with a cheap adjustable split ball gauge.Better is a dial bore gauge,much more money.

    While cyl centerline on rebuilds is not a problem valve guides need to be kept on the oe centerline, that is where seat and guide machines excel.

    Reading your posts I don't think you will have any problem learning,be nice to find a mentor.

    A good job shop machinist would not have a problem adapting to automotive work but an auto machinist would be lost in a job shop.Auto machines are job specific.Lathes and mills are universal and can do a lot of the same kind of work but require a lot more skill and are not as efficient.

    If your are really committed take your time and buy a good seat and guide machine and maybe a hone.

  11. #30
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    I really appreciate all of the comments and advise.

    Let me possibly explain where I'm at. I rebuild aluminum outboard motors. Nothing performance, just getting cleaned up back to stock performance and quality.

    I'm not able to spend $15,000 on machines, it's simply just not a possibility at this time. I'm looking for older machines that will be around $1,000-3,500. Don't mind doing any restorative work to get it back up to par or modify it...as long as I can get clear info on something (bridgeports seem to have good info).

    I saw you guys talking about the sunnen 616 and 10....those may be great points you make, but are mute as it's not even a possibility for me unfortunately.

    Honestly, I just want to be capable of 3 things.

    1) oversizing cylinders (to clean up damaged cylinders for rebuild).

    2) resurface heads/blocks appropriately (to use MLS gaskets)

    3) a valve job (preferably doing valve guides if needed).


    So far on #1 I have a boring bar that I need to learn how to use well. As far as honing it, I would like to get one of the "portable" hones from sunnen or comparable brand that works with a drill. I've used single berry hones before and they work fine for a crosshatch....I'd never try to take thousandths off though.

    For #2...I have no idea but know the 85b is at least an option in my price range that can be modded to give me the MLS results I'm looking for.

    #3. I have the neway cutters, and the Kwik way valve grinder that I need to figure out how to convert to a collet holder for a truer run-out. I did some research over weekend, and turns out a lot of these guides are pressed in/out with air hammers, and then reamed out to size...and knurled is only for the bronze liners right? This seems doable to me. I'll probably just buckle and dime myself buying pilots/reamers for a while...but it is at least affordable for me.


    I'm aware there will definitely be machines out that that can do the best job, better than the best and certainly better than my antiques. But those are unreasonable price tags.

    So, for what you know about me and my plans (limited budget, limited builds (maybe 8-12 a year), aluminum, not trying to be a machine shop)....do you think I can do okay with these machines and setups as long as I devote some time and junk blocks to skill up?



    Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk

  12. #31
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    That is kind of the problem with getting into automotive work, to do it right requires a full compliment of machines. I've seen people do head work on a B-port, how good it was IDK, I'm thinking it would need to be in tip top shape, either new or full re-scrape job. IIRC the only guide work you can do without a S&G machine is knurling, and that is done in cast iron, once you have a bronze insert you just replace the insert. I seem to remember a thin wall insert process, do not remember if guides were reamed by hand (piloted reamer) or in the S&G machine, then install thin guide and expand into place.

    Might as well start auction shopping for machines, you can't get them all at once cheap, but maybe over time.

    P.S. You still need a pressure test bench, a wet and dry mag, wash cabinet, flywheel grinder, crank grinder, Sunnen Hone and cap grinder, how far do you want to go

  13. #32
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    I use an air hammer to change valve guides. Sometimes it helps to tap on side, thread a bolt in, and pound against the bolt ( stretches the guide, making the OD smaller and comes out easier) I had a boring bar and motorcycle cylinder fixture table, but I hardly ever used either one. I found it much easier and accurate to just hone to size ( use a Sunnen hone)

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    Experience will tell you the surface finish you can get by with on heads and blocks for MLS gaskets......its different for different brands of gasket and different motors.

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    What kind of hone did you use? A "portable" one that hooks into a drill...or one of the bigger machines?

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    Its easy to knock up a honing stand for a drill ,suspended by a long spring....if you stick a rod in the back of the drill,you can add travel limiters.....cost nil.

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    Converted Storm Vulcan 85 Head Master Mill Automotive Block Head Milling Machine | eBay

    Found this the other day.

    Talked to owner and he said he had it converted to mill heads and blocks as well. Also swapped out the pulleys to give it a better finish to use MLS gaskets. Said it's worked great without issues on MLS.

    Closing down machine shop find.

    Any thoughts on this? I'm assuming with the conversions it's basically a SV 85b now huh?

    Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk

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    I read the ad, but it does not say what was done to make it so it could do blocks too, unless its just adding 4th leg? It does have a better shot of the cutter head, looks like the old VN and Lempco broaching heads. Broach in automotive machining has a different meaning than broach in regular machining, I have no idea why.

  20. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
    I read the ad, but it does not say what was done to make it so it could do blocks too, unless its just adding 4th leg? It does have a better shot of the cutter head, looks like the old VN and Lempco broaching heads. Broach in automotive machining has a different meaning than broach in regular machining, I have no idea why.
    As I recall, Storm Vulcan called it a "rotary broach". At that time, cast iron heads had all linear surfaces machined by surface broaches. Think a large, very coarse tooth file, as wide as the deck face and 12-15 feet long. Maybe 20 seconds to do two faces on the head. Do the valve cover first, so you can control chamber volume. Next station, locate on the valve cover and do the deck and other face.

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  22. #39
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    Re the 85B on ebay. Those came in two versions, a head master and block master. The block master was taller to accommodate the extra height needed to surface blocks. The "conversion" simply added the riser blocks to move the cutter head higher. Appears the risers on this one may be fabricated and not factory. Look at the red overspray on the floor under the machine and act accordingly. This machine is missing most of the factory furniture used for setting up heads and blocks, but the price is very reasonable.
    There are conversions available that remove the single speed v-belt pulley drive for the table traverse and replace it with a DC motor and right angle gear box so you can control the feed rate. There are also CBN cutter head retrofits available. If your heads have hard seats that are flush with the gasket surface, this is not the machine for you unless you upgrade it to a CBN cutter head. Properly leveled and with sharp cutters these are very accurate surfaces and were the standard for blueprinting V-8 engines back in the day.

    Mine came out of a two man shop and was maintained very well, and it does a great job for what it was intended for.

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  24. #40
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    I looked at that sellers other listings, seems he has 3 surfacing machines for sale, I'd say the red overspray is from the freshly painted VN broach, maybe a little from underside of the SV, which will probably get the full coat soon. The SV/Scledum surfacer is the only one I could walk up to and operate, but it is pricier than the other 2.


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