F/S two Horton lathe chucks - 1869 patent dates
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  1. #1
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    Default F/S two Horton lathe chucks - 1869 patent dates

    Greg, delete this if you don't want for sale items here, but these chucks are old enough most PMer's will have no interest in them over in the F/S section. The first came on an old Sebastian treadle lathe I picked up and the chuck has a 1869 patent date.
    Itís 7Ē OD with a back plate threaded 1.250Ē Ė 10. Itís in very good shape except for a ring around the front circumference. At first I thought it was a decorative embellishment but it cut some of the wording off the chuck so thatís not what it is. Lugs are in very good shape. The jaws are marked Patented and 1873. These jaws are a more modern style than the other chuck Iím listing. Operates smoothly.

    The 2nd chuck, pictures in next post, is also 7Ē OD with no backplate. Recess on back is 4 7/8" ID. The front has some dings and marks. The lugs have seen some combat. One pinion gear is missing 2 teeth. If you wiggle it, it will pass over the gap OK. It also has a 1869 Patent date. I was going to use this as my practice for gear repair but not anymore.
    Both chucks have the right look for an older lathe.

    Iím asking $50 for the pair plus shipping in a medium flat rate box.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_5813.jpg   img_5818.jpg   img_5815.jpg   img_5820.jpg   img_5822.jpg  


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    Pictures of second chuck.
    Next post is damaged gear.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_5806.jpg   img_5805.jpg   img_5810.jpg   img_5808.jpg   img_5809.jpg  


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    Damaged gear.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_5811.jpg   img_5812.jpg  

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    Both of these are typical Horton products of the era - basically a precursor to today's scroll chuck.

    The first is a chuck which has been "burst." Cast iron was the material of choice for these, semi-steel not coming in until after the 1880s. As such it had its limits - and this chuck seems to have met its.

    The ring on the first chuck is a "repair" and to keep a damaged tool in service. It appears to be a credible repair and may actually exceed the original construction in strength.

    The second chuck appears to be a chuck aimed at "dividing head" application. A little early for cylindrical grinder application which were similar. Not to say it can't be used on a lathe as it seems it was.

    The damaged pinion is "typical." I have one Horton with this issue and it's usable - also repairable if you're into these sort of things and a bit ingenious.

    The damages to the squares also repairable if one has a MIG and a milling machine.

    If you want to increase the "marketability" of these chucks, evaluate and post the possibility of "interchange of parts" - particularly using the index head chuck housing with the lathe chuck jaws/screws. It may not be possible since in that era, chuck were likely made in the then common work modus of "groups of seven" with a group of seven chucks (or wooden planes, or even complete machine tools) being brought to completion "together."

    Some affinity in the human mind by which seven discrete elements may differ, but each can be separated intellectually and attention wise, and brought to optimal condition by the miracle of human endeavor. And why even to our present day echelons of workforce, troops, or even process is typically done by multiples of "seven."

    These two chuck were likely NOT made together - but may be close enough by luck.

    Joe in NH

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    Joe, I'm not sure what you mean by the 1st chuck being burst.
    It's in good shape except for the cut around the front circumference.
    Pics in 2nd and 3rd post are the damaged 2nd chuck

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    Quote Originally Posted by maynah View Post
    Joe, I'm not sure what you mean by the 1st chuck being burst.
    It's in good shape except for the cut around the front circumference.
    Pics in 2nd and 3rd post are the damaged 2nd chuck
    The force of the screws/pinions are resisted by the "exterior" walls of the chuck. Where the holes are formed to pass the screw/square is the weak spot in this circumferential hoop. Likely a crack was seen at one of these holes.

    Knowing the chuck was "compromised" a former owner likely turned off a portion of the exterior diameter and then shrunk a ring on to "tie" it together. The ring seems ample and given the "stick-out" of the screws (i.e. "knuckle-buster) similar dimensionally to the original chuck diameter. Being steel rather than iron, and certainly uncracked, it's likely now the strongest part of this chuck.

    If you disassembly the back ring, remove the large ring and the pinions/screws (I think the jaws have to come out too) you can likely inspect the interior of this chuck. I imagine you will find a crack possibly a piece loose which is all contained in the ring.

    While disassembled you can check for "interchangeability" with the other chuck/body.

    Joe in NH

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    I also cannot see that the cut on the first chuck was a repair. Looks to me that someone got careless cutting the outside of a ring held in the chuck.

    I have an old Skinner with the same ring gear setup as the second chuck. It’s about a ten inch, and it’s a four jaw. But then it gets a lot more interesting than the one shown here. Underneath the ring gear is a ring with ramps underneath that mesh with ramps in the chuck body. The ramped ring is shifted by a stud and thumb wheel on the backside of the chuck. Shift it one way and the ramped ring lifts and forces the ring gear to engage the pinions - making it act as a normal scroll chuck. Shift it the other way and the ramped ring drops and disengages the ring gear from the pinions - making it an independent chuck. It has two-piece jaws, so I’d guess it’s not a very early chuck.

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    OK Joe, I had to find out. I took the chuck apart and there are no repairs, in fact the inside looks very nice. 1st pic.

    John, I have an old 5" Skinner that sounds like yours. I've never had it apart but it has the knob on the back to switch from 4 jaw independent to universal. It has a 1882 patent date and proudly proclaims "Flush Screws". It came with my 1910 South Bend.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_5837.jpg   universal-independant-chuck.jpg   universal-independant-chuck2.jpg  

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    OK Joe, I had to find out. I took the chuck apart and there are no repairs, in fact the inside looks very nice. 1st pic.
    Indeed it does. Almost "factory."

    Still, the pinion "shoulders" seem like they're seated against the added ring. Is it possible that one of the screws "blew out" through the now removed housing material? Or this may be yet another case of the manufacturer doing an "oops" in construction - and doing what they could to make a saleable product?

    Hard to know for sure now. As you say, it seems VERY functional. And certainly a testament to "ingeniousness."

    Maybe you don't want to "mix & match parts" if indeed that was possible? Sometimes success deserves preservation too!

    A snapshot in time certainly...

    The "sliding nut" jaw engagement is common late 19th century and more. My own "Westcott" chuck (the one with the "slots mirroring the external diameter") had this feature. I put it to the 1890s.



    Joe in NH

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    Quote Originally Posted by maynah View Post
    OK Joe, I had to find out. I took the chuck apart and there are no repairs, in fact the inside looks very nice. 1st pic.

    John, I have an old 5" Skinner that sounds like yours. I've never had it apart but it has the knob on the back to switch from 4 jaw independent to universal. It has a 1882 patent date and proudly proclaims "Flush Screws". It came with my 1910 South Bend.
    That is the same chuck I have, although mine is a 809J. No patent dates, no mention of flush screws, and Skinner Chucks is part of a logo design rather than being just written out. All of which - along with the two-piece jaws - leads to my guess that itís much later. Mine is just under 10-1/2Ē.

    The connections for the two-piece jaws are interesting. Each main jaw has two tapped holes which have large shallow counterbores. I donít have the original top jaws, but am guessing that they were similarly counterbore and that precision rings were used in between. Need a boring head for my jig bore, and when I get one Iíll make up some top jaws.

    Iíve been thinking about using it on my rotary table. The shift control on the underside means that it would have to be spaced up a bit, which Iím not too crazy about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in NH View Post
    Still, the pinion "shoulders" seem like they're seated against the added ring. Is it possible that one of the screws "blew out" through the now removed housing material? Or this may be yet another case of the manufacturer doing an "oops" in construction - and doing what they could to make a saleable product?

    Hard to know for sure now. Joe in NH
    As has been said above, this is someone who has been very careless and has machined into the outer top of the chuck body.
    This is not an added ring. Everything is proper and factory in the first picture in post #8.

    Rob


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