F/S two Horton lathe chucks - 1869 patent dates

Pictures of second chuck.
Next post is damaged gear.

Damaged gear.

Both of these are typical Horton products of the era - basically a precursor to today's scroll chuck.

The first is a chuck which has been "burst." Cast iron was the material of choice for these, semi-steel not coming in until after the 1880s. As such it had its limits - and this chuck seems to have met its.

The ring on the first chuck is a "repair" and to keep a damaged tool in service. It appears to be a credible repair and may actually exceed the original construction in strength.

The second chuck appears to be a chuck aimed at "dividing head" application. A little early for cylindrical grinder application which were similar. Not to say it can't be used on a lathe as it seems it was.

The damaged pinion is "typical." I have one Horton with this issue and it's usable - also repairable if you're into these sort of things and a bit ingenious.

The damages to the squares also repairable if one has a MIG and a milling machine.

If you want to increase the "marketability" of these chucks, evaluate and post the possibility of "interchange of parts" - particularly using the index head chuck housing with the lathe chuck jaws/screws. It may not be possible since in that era, chuck were likely made in the then common work modus of "groups of seven" with a group of seven chucks (or wooden planes, or even complete machine tools) being brought to completion "together."

Some affinity in the human mind by which seven discrete elements may differ, but each can be separated intellectually and attention wise, and brought to optimal condition by the miracle of human endeavor. And why even to our present day echelons of workforce, troops, or even process is typically done by multiples of "seven."

These two chuck were likely NOT made together - but may be close enough by luck.

Joe in NH

Joe, I'm not sure what you mean by the 1st chuck being burst.
It's in good shape except for the cut around the front circumference.
Pics in 2nd and 3rd post are the damaged 2nd chuck

maynah said:

Joe, I'm not sure what you mean by the 1st chuck being burst.
It's in good shape except for the cut around the front circumference.
Pics in 2nd and 3rd post are the damaged 2nd chuck

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The force of the screws/pinions are resisted by the "exterior" walls of the chuck. Where the holes are formed to pass the screw/square is the weak spot in this circumferential hoop. Likely a crack was seen at one of these holes.

Knowing the chuck was "compromised" a former owner likely turned off a portion of the exterior diameter and then shrunk a ring on to "tie" it together. The ring seems ample and given the "stick-out" of the screws (i.e. "knuckle-buster) similar dimensionally to the original chuck diameter. Being steel rather than iron, and certainly uncracked, it's likely now the strongest part of this chuck.

If you disassembly the back ring, remove the large ring and the pinions/screws (I think the jaws have to come out too) you can likely inspect the interior of this chuck. I imagine you will find a crack possibly a piece loose which is all contained in the ring.

While disassembled you can check for "interchangeability" with the other chuck/body.

Joe in NH

I also cannot see that the cut on the first chuck was a repair. Looks to me that someone got careless cutting the outside of a ring held in the chuck.

I have an old Skinner with the same ring gear setup as the second chuck. It’s about a ten inch, and it’s a four jaw. But then it gets a lot more interesting than the one shown here. Underneath the ring gear is a ring with ramps underneath that mesh with ramps in the chuck body. The ramped ring is shifted by a stud and thumb wheel on the backside of the chuck. Shift it one way and the ramped ring lifts and forces the ring gear to engage the pinions - making it act as a normal scroll chuck. Shift it the other way and the ramped ring drops and disengages the ring gear from the pinions - making it an independent chuck. It has two-piece jaws, so I’d guess it’s not a very early chuck.

OK Joe, I had to find out. I took the chuck apart and there are no repairs, in fact the inside looks very nice. 1st pic.

John, I have an old 5" Skinner that sounds like yours. I've never had it apart but it has the knob on the back to switch from 4 jaw independent to universal. It has a 1882 patent date and proudly proclaims "Flush Screws". It came with my 1910 South Bend.

OK Joe, I had to find out. I took the chuck apart and there are no repairs, in fact the inside looks very nice. 1st pic.

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Indeed it does. Almost "factory."

Still, the pinion "shoulders" seem like they're seated against the added ring. Is it possible that one of the screws "blew out" through the now removed housing material? Or this may be yet another case of the manufacturer doing an "oops" in construction - and doing what they could to make a saleable product?

Hard to know for sure now. As you say, it seems VERY functional. And certainly a testament to "ingeniousness."

Maybe you don't want to "mix & match parts" if indeed that was possible? Sometimes success deserves preservation too!

A snapshot in time certainly...

The "sliding nut" jaw engagement is common late 19th century and more. My own "Westcott" chuck (the one with the "slots mirroring the external diameter") had this feature. I put it to the 1890s.



Joe in NH

maynah said:

OK Joe, I had to find out. I took the chuck apart and there are no repairs, in fact the inside looks very nice. 1st pic.

John, I have an old 5" Skinner that sounds like yours. I've never had it apart but it has the knob on the back to switch from 4 jaw independent to universal. It has a 1882 patent date and proudly proclaims "Flush Screws". It came with my 1910 South Bend.

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That is the same chuck I have, although mine is a 809J. No patent dates, no mention of flush screws, and Skinner Chucks is part of a logo design rather than being just written out. All of which - along with the two-piece jaws - leads to my guess that it’s much later. Mine is just under 10-1/2”.

The connections for the two-piece jaws are interesting. Each main jaw has two tapped holes which have large shallow counterbores. I don’t have the original top jaws, but am guessing that they were similarly counterbore and that precision rings were used in between. Need a boring head for my jig bore, and when I get one I’ll make up some top jaws.

I’ve been thinking about using it on my rotary table. The shift control on the underside means that it would have to be spaced up a bit, which I’m not too crazy about.

Joe in NH said:

Still, the pinion "shoulders" seem like they're seated against the added ring. Is it possible that one of the screws "blew out" through the now removed housing material? Or this may be yet another case of the manufacturer doing an "oops" in construction - and doing what they could to make a saleable product?

Hard to know for sure now. Joe in NH

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As has been said above, this is someone who has been very careless and has machined into the outer top of the chuck body.
This is not an added ring. Everything is proper and factory in the first picture in post #8.

Rob