F W & John Barnes 4 1/2 lathe

I've been looking for a velocipede lathe since I learned they exist. I've found what looks to be an early v-belt, gear drive one.

I think I'm going to take a look at it. What should I look for to evaluate if it's in condition to be made into a usable machine? It looks like it has a lot of accessories. Is it missing anything that I might need to use it?

More:

Hello,
From the photos provided the looks to be very complete. It is a long bed round belt. Seat is not original. Reproduction seats (that look very original) can be purchased from Cattail Foundry.
To evaluate performance by foot power the lathe should be belted. The peddling should be smooth and peddle with ease. Engage the 1/2 nut to put the carriage in motion which should also run smooth. Turn all the knobs and feel if they turn with ease. Check to see if there is play in the headstock at the spindle. Check for cracks and repairs. I have a Barnes 4-1/2 that I have had for 40 years and just love the lathe. Even though I upgraded to a Logan 820 I still use the 4-1/2 for certain projects. I'm sure some other Barnes users can add to what to look for and help with your decision.
George

I would assume that the bearings are babbet? So if there is play, they'd have to be re-poured?

With a screw driver you can remove the bearing cap and see if the bearing is bad. I see the lathe is equipped with either grease or oil fittings which would lead me to believe the lathe was lubricated, but it never hurts to check it out. Good luck if you decide to purchase.

Any idea what these might be worth? The seller doesn't really know, and originally had it priced at $4500, but has dropped the asking price down to a more reasonable amount. There's an old post here or on another forum that I found somewhere saying that $800 was the high end of reasonable, but that was 2008 and it seems like these have gotten trendy with some high profile Youtubers doing projects with them recently, so I'm not sure what the current value is.

The only recent sell price I see on eBay is around $695, and missing the velocipede parts: Listing

In general, as was said above, definitely look for cracks, breaks and repairs. This would also affect the price, if you buy now and if you sell sometime in the future. Old cast iron can be fragile, repairs can be fussy.

Not sure I would agree there is a demand thus value in my experience based on "seems like these have gotten trendy with some high profile Youtubers doing projects with them recently." Being complete and without any cracks or welds or fixes, is certainly a step up from one without all the foot powered parts. A very close inspection is necessary and some cracks are very hard to see. Proximity to the buyer is another factor as shipping can result in scrap cast iron. Accessories help out as they are hard to find as are spare parts.

His original price is WAY, WAY out of reason from my experience. The other mention of "high end" is perhaps some low. And there is that other factor to consider, how bad do I want it! Also, keep in mind when it come to usability, your legs can only generate so much energy for only so long. And last but not least, get a book on how to sharpen cutters.

And if you have not yet run across it, here is a link to a video on the Barnes 4 1/2 Barnes 4 1/2 Foot Powered Metal Lathe - YouTube A word of warning, foot powered machinery can be very addictive and with that said, I love foot powered machinery!!

Good luck!! Ed

Ed Hobbs said:

Not sure I would agree there is a demand thus value in my experience based on "seems like these have gotten trendy with some high profile Youtubers doing projects with them recently."

Click to expand...

You're probably right. If they had, someone else would probably have grabbed this one. He's asking $1500 now. I'll see what offer he'll take. This one looks more complete than the recent 650 ebay one (which is down already I should have taken some screen shots).

Apart from the V-belt pulleys and geared velocipede drive on this one, as opposed to the flat belt pulleys that are on most that I've seen, it seems like this one only has a single lead screw. It looks more like the No. 5 lathe from the pre-1885 catalog here. It looks like the flat belt was only available on the No 6 at that time.

First a question! What says this is a 4 1/2??

Reason.. If memory serves, the #5 and the #4 were very early introduction by Barnes - about 1876/1877 or so as bench seat machines and followed their first metal lathe, the #2. When introduced, the #5 had a 9 inch swing while the #4 had a 7 inch swing. The #5 was their first back geared screw cutting metal lathe. About 1880. Barnes introduced the #6 initially with a 12 inch swing. Fast forward to around 1900, when Barnes upped the swing of the #5 to 11, increased the #6 to 13 inches and around then began making the 4 1/2 as a 9 inch swing back geared metal lathe. An overhaul and upgrade of their metal lathe line along with other options and models.

Also, the gear drive was offered early, likely only before 1900 and have not seen it listed as an option for the 4 1/2.

The bench seat #5 in the collection only has a single lead screw. (my lead screw is missing so if anyone has a longer lead screw, would love to see if it would fit)

So some thoughts!! Sound like you may have an early 9 inch swing #5 bed, headstock, tailstock, etc. As for the legs and drive, it could also be from a #5 or perhaps from a transition model or something or???

So back to the question, what is saying it is a 4 1/2??

Hope this helps! Thanks Ed

Ed has something there about being a #5 lathe. I also believe that there is no such thing as a round belt 4-1/2.

Since there doesn't seem to be a #5 cast into the lathe you can look at the brass thread plate to see if there is a #5 stamped at the top of the plate. Also if the largest gear shown on the brass plate has 104 teeth I would say the lathe has to be a #5. Regardless of being a #5 instead of a #4-1/2 it looks like a nice lathe that you could do work on. Also as Ed, said make sure you use very sharp tools.

Ed Hobbs said:

First a question! What says this is a 4 1/2??

Click to expand...

The seller told me that there's nothing that says it's a No 4 1/2. That's just his assumption, or what he was told.

I'm leaning toward it being a No 5. Here's the page from the pre-1885 catalog for the No 5.

I believe No. 5 preceded No. 4-1/2 in production. IIRC if it's round belt its either a 4 (no self-feed) or a No. 5.

Valuation for a complete velocipede varies. Completeness is essential on the velocipede since parts are expensive for these specialized cast iron constructions. It's rare to find the usually missing flywheel and pedals. Even the chain used on the later models is still made, but not readily available. Not so much value advantage is put on the "early" models versus the late models.

I would give a complete No. 5 with velocipede about $1500 ask. I would expect these to be negotiated down to a sale price of about $1000-1200 depending on appointments.

I would give a complete No. 4-1/2 velocipede about $1200 ask. And I would expect this to be negotiated down to a sale price of $850-$1000 depending on appointments. The values achieved on a 4-1/2 are typically less than a No. 5 because of lesser availability of No. 5 compared to extant No. 4-1/2s (A farmer with tight money given a choice between the more expensive No. 5 and a less expensive 4-1/2 would choose the 4-1/2 based on pricing AND the fact that it was the smallest Barnes lathe that could cut threads to a thread chart.)

The No. 4 is more variable price wise as they were made in smaller numbers than either of the above BUT also suffer from limited utility being a non-self-feeding lathe - i.e. not really a metalworking lathe in the traditional sense. You can't cut threads according to a thread chart on the No. 4.

There are those who price Barnes Lathe in the "stratospheric" range - usually these are those who don't really have an appreciation for the availability of these machines, and are pricing themselves "high" in the thought they don't want to be "taken" not realizing that pricing high reduces one's marketability. Some like Gold's Machinery in Rhode Island have the luxury of time for an unaware buyer to come in the door. And unfortunately many erstwhile sellers look at the Gold's Ebay pricing as some sort of actual market indicator. It is not.

It is still possible to find virgin unmolested Barnes lathes "out in the wild." A recent relatively complete velocipede No. 4 seen in Connecticut Craigslist as example. It spent an AWFUL LONG TIME on Craigslist at $400. I'm not even sure it ever sold but may have been simply removed. One needs to look "regular and often" to see the deals when they pass by and ACT ON THEM when they do. A couple of hours may make a difference.

Barnes are not that rare. WC Young lathes are probably more rare than Barnes but sell in the same price-point as Barnes. The "self propelled" aspect seems more attractive than actual numbers extant. And Reed lathes with treadle are even more rare but sell for only a little bit more, mostly because of the larger size/more common lathe setup.

Joe in NH

My I’d of lathe

I do get to visit PM occasionally.

The lathe pictured is a #5 Barnes built between 1880-1889. It does use round or angular belt drive (leather v-belt). Has cut gears between velocipede drive and flywheel. Draw back has Jarno taper in headstock and tailstock.

Here is my YouTube video of my ole iron exhibit

https://youtu.be/FrhrauTFN5M

Ray :d