First post.. down the rabbit hole... brown and sharp #1 with tree 2uv

So my semi regular trip to the scrap yard today may have cost me more than any trip to date. In the back corner, amid a few old and not so functional machines, I spot this glorious piece of American history. Problem is, I don't know anything about metal working tools. After some googling, some reading, some reading and some googling, I've finally found a reason to register on this forum (which is my go to search string anytime I embark in a project, building a cnc router table (practical machinist), should I mill with a drill press(practical machinist), is this drill mill worth a d**,ect).
That being said what we have (if I can get pictures to load), in my novice opinion, is a brown and Sharpe #1 horizontal mill, with a Tree 2UV mounted to it. The spindle felt tight (didn't take my dial indicator because I didn't know I would be looking at machinery), all the slides work smooth as butter given how much crud is built up on them, spindle turns, ect.
Problems here:
1, This thing slid off a roll back when it was dropped off, (although the only noticeable damage so far was it shifted the belt housing causing the pulleys not to mesh correctly until I reseated it and a bent handle on the y crossfeed) .
2. It has absolutely no tooling included.
3. All my research says this thing is going to weight around 3k pounds. I would be paying 25 cents a pound for it (although more on this later, I think I am only in if I can get this sup 500$.
4. The Tree head uses z collects which are available but from what I'm gathering, non standard.
5. The Tree head uses a pancake motor which apparently is about 1.3 million dollars to replace, and harder to find than than a numbers matching shelby. This one is full of dirt, either from the landing coming off the flat bed, or years of wasps using it as a penthouse suite.
6. I've read on here somewhere regarding a similar machine I believe they call radial drill mills that the head rotating on a simple shaft such as this one leads to a less than stellar overall accuracy.
7. MY WIFE IS GONNA KILL ME IF I GET THIS. (Sorry for the caps lock)
8. *edit* also the power feed for what it's worth on the brown knee may or may not be operational, hand turning the belt, watch the gears spin inside mil, but can't get any combination (from what I can tell, no stamped on user manual here) to drive any part of the table.
So I've gotten in touch with zpsusa who claim to still stock all the parts to rebuild the head, and I'm getting the tools together to go back and give her a real once over, but I'm really looking for some guidance here. I've got a soft spot for things older than most people walking the earth, things that helped win ww2, sent men to the moon, things from a time when the country bonded together for a greater good, ect.
Am I lost here? Is this a terrible machine to dive into machinist land with? Is even 500$ too much? Alright, I'm sorry for the rambling, let's see if I can figure out images.

Looks like it may be uploading sideways? Chances of an admin being able to fix? I see no option at least from the phone here.

Thanks for reading, and I look forward to being an active part of this forum.

V/r
Jeff Caldwell

PDF page 17 covers the 5 step (cone pulley) #1 - 1916 scan

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2185/5342.pdf

No "manuals" then, they had this, though there are several later editions - 1896 scan
It was later renamed to Practical Treatise on Milling and Milling Machines

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2185/17442.pdf

Practical consideration...Wth the table / saddle all the way to front and over arm / Tree all the way to back does the tree spindle cover any useful portion of table?. Photos make it appear not to. In other words, is it a good idea to have the Tree on there at all?

I'd say more like $300 in its condition. For $500 you could find a better condition mill before it ends up in the scrap yard.

johnoder said:

Practical consideration...Wth the table / saddle all the way to front and over arm / Tree all the way to back does the tree spindle cover any useful portion of table?. Photos make it appear not to. In other words, is it a good idea to have the Tree on there at all?

Click to expand...

The entire head slides forward and back on the (for lack of a better word) overhang arm/shaft. Simple level lock on this, with no form of indexing that I can see. The head also tilts front to back (I believe this would be considered in the y plane, this has a very precise marking system, but I'm sure some sort of indexing would be required any time these are adjusted.

As for price I'm glad were in agreement here. The fact that this is a hodge podge of multiple machines takes the antique purist out of the equation. The concept, at least for me is neat, but a mashup of 2 machines that are no longer in production poses it's own sets of problems. Even getting the powerfeed operating will require at a minimum a second motor to drive the brown and Sharpe components.

Looking forward to more replies, thanks again guys (and gals).

Sorry to hear you've contracted the disease.
Congratulations, and welcome to the club.

Look, there seems to be a rule in this game, that says you gotta pay too much for iron that seems like it's the last deal on earth.
Even if you never cut a chip, but you learn (which it's obvious you already are), consider it a 'win' in this game. Sport? Hobby? Addiction?
If you don't get smacked down and fed up with this monstrosity, there will be avenues that open up toward better toys if you want to keep going. Plus, there's usually always the 'next guy' that will want to pick up where you left off.,,,,,if you leave off with this one. Hold back on throwing cash at the first few toys in an effort to make them perfect. There's always better stuff out there.
The wife thing can be the most dangerous and scary part.

Buy the Tree head off of it at least.

Jeff,

As someone who contracted the disease in a similar manner (my initial purchase was a lathe but the symptoms are the same) with no metalworking knowledge and no resources other than this forum. It has been one of the most rewarding things I have done. I have made friends, built cool stuff, acquired new skills and a shop full of old iron. I say go for it, tell your wife it is cheaper than golfing or therapy. My wife doesn't get it but appreciates that she always knows where I am when I disappear.

Craig

The wife isn't as against it as I may have led on, but when I called leaving the scrap yard saying 'You'd be proud of me, I didn't buy this giant mill' and 6 hours later we're sitting on the couch and I look over, 'I think I want that mill' it's hilarious. Her logic is as long as I'm in the garage, I'm home and she knows what I'm doing.

As for some of the comments,
'Avoid throwing cash at the first few toys trying to make them perfect'
Problem, I'm 90 percent done with my cnc table (wood router, plasma, 3d printer and possibly laser. It's meant to have a plywood bed (and obviously not be a cnc plasma, which I thought I might want, so almost a grand in steel later, it's a fully welded folding 5x10(foot) table.

'Buy the tree off if at least'
So I look at this machine and I see a few things. First of a 9-12 x 36-45 table that can take a power feed, and moves amazingly for a machine that is coming up on 120 years old (absolutely amazing IMHO). The biggest baddest z axis dovetails I've ever seen, and a metric s*** ton (literally) of rigidity in the bade/knee so to speak. The tree head (probably the only component on the mill which parts are easily accessible, but also expensive, and odd components (pancake motor, z universal collets, horseshoe style collet adapter which I'm reading as Trees alternate to a draw bar).

I tried to look into possibly using it as a super rigid foundation and mounting another head to the unit, but the cheapest head I'm seeing is around 1000, and adding this to whatever I pay for the mill, what it takes to adapt the 2 together, and I'm sure I will be in the 2-3k range, which is basically bridgeport money, for a bridgeport head on an odd ball base. So this begs the question, If he remains set on scrap sals price (which for him is 25 cents a pound, and I am not buying this mill for 750$, which part would be justified in taking, I'm assuming it won't be the base, given that that will probably be 80-90 percent of total weight. Maybe the bed (ok what is this called lol) and the Tree head and mounting shaft?
This disease has been a long time coming, First piece of vintage machinery that got me was a delta/Rockwell bandsaw from late 40s/early 50s. Just something cool about an old machine that new parts (from Chicago machinery to jet to grizzly) still fit, must have been a good design. That one sold out from under me, but I was hooked. This is the second turn of the century flat belt machine I've looked at in the last month, just waiting for the right one to pull the trigger on.


Side note one more question, someone above gave a price suggestion around 300, because for 500 you could save a more complete mill from the scrap yard. Where would I find these machines? I'm in craigslist (all of them in a 500 miles radius), letgo, OfferUp, Facebook MP, even Ebay, what am I missing.

Thanks again.

You are not missing anything, you just need patience. If you are willing to go to NY, esbutler's Brown & Sharpe mill would be an excellent mill and he is willing to deal. For Sale: Brown & Sharpe 3B Heavy horizontal millling machine with counter shaft

Oh now this complicates things, hahhaha.

I bet the overshaft from the one down the street from me will would fit that one quiet nicely. And I can't imagine the overshaft and mill head weighing more than 1000 pounds, putting worst cast pricing around 250$. This is starting to turn into the ' I don't know why she swallowed the fly' nursery rhyme.

He cleared the land to pour the pad, poured the pad to build the shop, built the shop get more room, got more room to get the mill, but I dont know, he got the mill. (I have a 9 month old at home, don't judge me .

Side note, you guys are real efficinatos. I've found 2 or 3 machines, and everytime I search them here, these old machines sound like the best thing since sliced bread (except BPs, they're just BPs Haha.

I seem to be in the same boat though, cannot fathom these machines going to the scrap yard when they were cutting sub thousandth accuracy before the first transistor. If nothing but to better the cause, I'd like to post all my craiglists finds, but I'm not sure this is the right forum / topic.

Moore #2 1200$
Bridgeport Mill/Boring - for Machine Shop - business/commercial - by owner - sale

Us machine company v2
U.S. MACHINE TOOL MILL - tools - by owner - sale

Running Cincinnati 0-8 FOR DIRT CHEAP (maybe this is where I should be heading, just see no Y axis and cant seem to find any info that matches this machine.
Cincinnati metal mill - general for sale - by owner

If you decide to get the B&S #1 I have some parts left from one I had.

Running Cincinnati 0-8 FOR DIRT CHEAP

Click to expand...

For same little cut on the same little part over and over and over - for years maybe

The exact opposite of a handy, versatile milling machine

PRODUCTION MILL

Yea I assumed, and possibly incorrectly, that it could be used manually, but from the videos and reading I've done, definitely appears to be a purpose built production type unit.

I am going back to look st the tree head and bed assembly, measure rumour on the spindle / table, and start talking price because I know scrap price he buys at and his walk the yard sell price are different (by a factor of 3), and they may be another person with a soft spot for old stuff come by, but paying 50 percent more than he paid may be the best offer he's going to get on this old thing. Worst case I may pick the head up, a bridge port j head apparently weighs around 200 pounds so this should be no more than 400 which puts me around 100$. If nothing else part it out and help someone else get their machine repaired and make a little on the side (with the added bonus of horribly restricting other buyers until he comes around to his senses on price).

Make sure I'm reading this right, but these tree heads actually have a horse shoe style collet adapter that pushes the collet adapter into its 'socket' (for lack of a better word) to keep it seated against the taper, as opposed to a draw bar pulling it up into it like traditional mills. The Bridgeport 9x42 bed assembly apparently weighs just shy of 400 pounds, which again puts me at around 100$, I think a replacement from BP is between 4 and 6000, granted not the same machine, but quiet the value I think. Kinda gets me about supply and demand when you see components (smallish ones at that) commanding 25-50 percent of used mill prices. I dont want to be in the mill game to part things out, but 90 percent of my hobbies revolve around either making money, or making things that make money.

maynah said:

If you decide to get the B&S #1 I have some parts left from one I had.

Click to expand...

Will do
Thanks again gentlemen.
Such a helpful forum for furthering my addiction.

IF you want help furthering your addiction you're in the right place. If you want help recovering, you need to stay far away from the folks on this forum.

Here is a link to a site that you should keep your eye on. Not knowing where in Tennessee you are I just went with the middle of the state.

horizontal mill Auctions Online | Bidspotter.com

Craig

Yeah, this one should fit the bill. Might have to shoe horn it into the garage.

Toshiba BP-130-P40 CNC Horizontal Table Type Boring Mill CNC Horizontal Table Type Boring Mill, 5

Scrap prices are tanking right now, offer the yard owner (not a lackey), .20c a pound for it.

Havent forgotten about this thread, went back and tried to shoehorn the head off with the shaft, not happening, talked to owners son as owner will be out all week and hes pretty adamant he never comes off his price (granted he only charges 25 cents a pound as it is, but at an estimated 3k pounds 750 $ for 2 antiques stuck together seems pretty high. I just missed a lagun ftv-1 with dro for 1500 (couldn't verify function but she was a tight machine, just not well taken care of. The fact that there are a whopping like 15 tree mill parts on Ebay is not helping my brain think I will be able to get it functional. Still going to try to grab the head and shaft if nothing else, because it should only cost me 100$.