Flat drill bit.... how old?

This showed up in some tooling......

I have no idea how recently this might have been manufactured..... There is probably no REASON for it in the last 50+ years, but that doesn't preclude it having been made recently, I suppose.....

Stamp says "mathieson", and there is a logo stamp as well

Bit

The bit is designed to be used in a standard "carpenters" Brace. The tapered square drive is common for wood auger bits.
JRW

That part I know.

The question is, why, in the relatively modern world, say the last 100 years, would anyone want that, when an augur bit is better, easier to use, and goes straight?

Cost?

And would anyone have MADE these in the last 50 years or so?

JST said:

That part I know.

The question is, why, in the relatively modern world, say the last 100 years, would anyone want that, when an augur bit is better, easier to use, and goes straight?

Cost?

And would anyone have MADE these in the last 50 years or so?

Click to expand...

Well, it's not a drill bit - it's a countersink. That should cover the utility part. And they're easy to sharpen.

Yes, they were made within the last fifty years. I have a 1959 catalog from William Marples & Sons, Sheffield, England that shows them. How much later, if any, they were made I can't say.

No prices in the Marples catalog, but a 1914 catalog from Edward Preston & Sons, Birmingham, England shows them from 4/6 (1/2", black) to 7/1 (5/8", straw coloured) per dozen. Sorry about the shillings/pence - you'll have to convert. As a comparison, the more familiar rose head design, same sizes and finishes, was 5/- to 8/7 for the 8-flute type and 5/6 to 9/7 for the 12-flute.

Mathieson was a Scottish maker. Glasgow, IIRC.

John

A COUNTERSINK?

Do you have to start it before drilling the hole?

I can't see that working well with two flutes, but I can try it and see..... both ways, before and after.

Tanks....Yuh lern sompin evr dahy

They made "track" drills (for RR track folks) that looked like that, though I have no idea of how big the one in the photo is.

John Oder

Mathieson also made taps.

Some history on Mathieson:

http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUK/RecordT/hist/mathies/mathieson-1822-1926-2.asp

As John said... "...The firm did however have a large export trade in heavy duty auger bits widely used throughout the world for boring railway sleepers. "

Here are some Mathieson spoon bits (pic).

Scan from Railway Track and Maintenance (1926). As you can see the lever operated rachet and strong back did not give the drill much choice about drilling holes in this hard stuff.

John Oder

I am more inclined to think it is a bit for drilling holes in metal, rather than a countersink. At any rate, it is similar in shape to metal drilling bits of 80-200 years ago. I have a little collection of them, several obviously hand made by blacksmiths from old files and such. The tapered square shank was used on metalworking bits and does not automatically make it a carpenters' tool. In the days before portable electric drills, holes still had to be be made in metal. Some of mine have shanks that are too big to fit the standard carpenter brace. A not uncommon tool is a chuck to fit this type of bit with a length of chain to wrap around a part and a means of screw-feeding the bit, rather like the rail drill shown above. The chuck could be turned by a carpenter brace or a ratchet wrench. You obviously do not need a screw feed device for drilling wood.

Larry

Here are some more track bits.



Ive been wondering if there is a way to chuck em up and use them on a camelback DP.

Thank you.

James

i Have a box of very similar drill bits, and they are still being made today! watchmakers use these in tiny sizes for drilling acurate hiles in hard steel, by hand. its so much less likeley to jamb than a twist drill, and in a hard railway iron, i think it would be just the thing, with the machine shown..

my biggest one is about 2mm though, and smalest 0.1mm, so a little different than this i imagine.

EMMA

J.s.t,
I can remember the Mathieson works in the 1957 period across from the barrows market, and the well known Barrowland ballroom in the Gallowgate district of glasgow, Mathiesons were in East Campbell St, Although at that time, the ballroom with all the pretty girls was more interesting to a teenager than Mathiesons, And as i was usually about that area in the occasional evening or Saturdays for finding bargains, Mathiesons, did not come into the equation, ( if they were still in production or just selling off the remaining stock? Although they might have been limping on, as a very well known Glasgow ironmonger & tool dealer par excellence, called Carrick & Craig, still were selling Mathieson tools about that time maybe more old stock?) Mathiesons works were pulled down in fairly recent times, only one small part is left
You tool we over here call a spade drill, and for slowly going through hard rail or girders, with a ratchet brace were excellent, The old workers, must have had strong arms & shoulders Your mystery tool is a long way from its place of birth

The other J.R. wrote:

"The tapered square drive is common for wood auger bits."

There's a name for that drive. That's called a "bitstock" drive. Tools with such a drive, and there are many, are classed as "bitstock tools"

There are literally dozens of patents on bitstock chucks.

The tool with the bitstock chuck and chains to wrap around a pipe or a beam is usually called a "chain drill", although this is somewhat of a misnomer, I think.

I have quite a few fractional twist drills with bitstock chucks. In addition to fitting in carpenter's braces. these also fit two-jaw breast drills. These are US made and have names of prominent twist drill makers. I actually bought some of these NEW at an old-time hardware store. Some have the standard tip angle for drilling metal, and a few have a 90 degree included angle for drilling wood. The point is, they were quite common in our grandparent's time.

Some of the early "post drill" handcranked drillpresses accept bitstock tools, although most post drills I've seen take a 1/2" straight shank with a flat or two for a setscrew.

The quickest way to check to see if the tool in question is a countersink is to check the angle that it cuts.

John Ruth
Remember: The carpenter's brace *IS* a cordless drill whose batteries are never dead.

Ok...... the bit is about 4" overall, by 0.437 (7/16) diameter, and has an angle of about 82 degrees, so it must indeed be a countersink...

A two-flute unguided countersink (unlike the single flute but very well guided ones) strikes me as quite likely to tear and chatter around, as opposed to a rose bit that goes straight and causes no trouble.

But, .......

Editing.....

it does OK..... maybe has some advantages, actually, I confess to being surprised. Crummy pine, C-sinks OK.

JST:

I'm a bit surprised, actually, that it worked that well in soft pine. Try it in some harder stuff, right up to mild steel, and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

For those who think it might be a drill bit, I'd scan a catalog page if my scanner was working, or shoot one if I had a digital camera, but for now you'll have to take my word for it that Marples and Preston sold them as countersinks.

It wouldn't serve very well as a drill bit. As you sharpened it back, it would lose its diameter. Unlike the track bits, which have parallel sides and keep their size as they are sharpened.

There are a couple of advantages against the rose countersink. One is in sharpening - all you ever have to file or grind or hone is the bottom surface. Sharpen a rose countersink a few times, and it's not very likely that all cuting edges are still cutting. Another is in the cutting angle - whereas a rose countersink pretty much scrapes the work, this one has a hook to the cutting edge that allows it to slice rather than scrape.

Hold on - I just found a Mathieson catalog reprint that I thought I had. Alexr. Mathieson & Sons, Ltd., Saracen Tool Works, East Campbell Street, Glasgow. Eighth Edition, 1899. Page 40 has three different countersinks:

1071 - Countersinks, Cast Steel, Black, Flat Head, for Iron, 4/6 doz.
1072 - Countersinks, Cast Steel, Black, Snailhorn, for Wood, 5/ doz.
1073 - Countersinks, Cast Steel, Black, Rosehead, for Brass, 5/ doz.
Sizes stocked are: - Small, 7/16 full; Mid, 9/16 bare; Large, 5/8 full

The one JST pictured is the 1071, for iron. The Snailhorn is a full cone like the Rosehead, but with only a single flute curving through it.

They also show number 1074 Brace Drill Bits, which are somewhat like this countersink but longer and without the hook at the cutting edge. Doesn't specify whether for wood or iron. They wouldn't lose their size quite as quickly when you sharpened them back as would the countersink.

The crescent with 8-point star was their trademark for Best Quality goods. For Second Quality, they used a crescent with a cross, or Crossmark Keen & Co., Glasgow. For Third Quality, they used a large G with Tertius Keen & Co.

The Scots pound was worth $5.00 US in 1899. Which made the shilling, at twenty to the pound, worth $0.25, and the pence, at twelve to the shilling, worth about $0.02.

And that, my friends, is my $0.02 worth.

John,

whose great-great-grandfather was a mechanical engineer in the Hutchesontown area of Glasgow just across the Clyde from Mathieson and may very well have worked there

The mark is hard to distinguish, but it does appear to be a crescent and star, so that must be "best quality"...... no wonder it works well.

Yes, the hook edge actually curled up a coil of wood as it cut. Didn't try it on metal.

this seems like a relevant thread, what are these bits? there must be a name, these are way too heavy for a brace, the thickness ranges from .414" to .356 inches, they are good HSS, I can barely mark one at all with a good hard scribe. They are from the estate of a good friend - what are they? how are they used? I keep thinking they are for some specific operation on heavy iron.
The longest is 11 inches approx, the smallest is just over 7 inches.

bill noble said:

this seems like a relevant thread, what are these bits? there must be a name, these are way too heavy for a brace, the thickness ranges from .414" to .356 inches, they are good HSS, I can barely mark one at all with a good hard scribe. They are from the estate of a good friend - what are they? how are they used? I keep thinking they are for some specific operation on heavy iron.
The longest is 11 inches approx, the smallest is just over 7 inches.View attachment 314658View attachment 314659View attachment 314660

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Look kinda like them plastic blades that go in the head of a lawn trimmer. Give them a whirl and let us know.

bill noble said:

what are these bits? there must be a name, these are way too heavy for a brace, the thickness ranges from .414" to .356 inches, they are good HSS, I can barely mark one at all with a good hard scribe.

Click to expand...

I am speculating here, as I've not seen bits like that before. But I wonder if they were used in finishing bells/bores for musical instruments.